[top] 71429 Fiery Attacks @ 48 avg dmg per for 3,428,592 dmg

Malan · 07/03/07, 10:05 AM

According to theory at least. This all would require testing to verify.

Disquette · 07/03/07, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

According to theory at least. This all would require testing to verify.

A man after my own heart ;-)

No thoughts yet on the flurry testing linked near the bottom of page 10, anyone?

Malan · 07/03/07, 10:41 AM

I could lie and tell you I understood your Flurry stuff Disquette but I wouldn't be very convincing.

martin0641 · 07/03/07, 10:42 AM

I was comparing the new Vet boots with the weighted values and it seems one pair is worth 62 points and the other 64. I was aiming at 50% raid crit with 1900-2200 atk power between trinkets. I figured the massive amount of crits would outpace the seemingly small amount of damage gains from attack power, especially from WF damage. Especially when I gain so much attack from trinkets and buffs, I thought the crit itself during the 15-20 second trinket periods would be a really big boost. Is 28 attack power really worth .5 crit chance?

Hedin · 07/03/07, 10:59 AM

If any1 is interested in 3 sec WF cooldown showing addon - try out my ACE2 WF3sec v0.4, btw lucky shamans with 1st tier5 set bonus will be surprised :-)

Malan · 07/03/07, 11:01 AM

I don't like surprises, what's the surprise?

Disquette · 07/03/07, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

I could lie and tell you I understood your Flurry stuff Disquette but I wouldn't be very convincing.

The main thing it shows is that having 2 identical speed weapons doesn't show much (any) bonus over having weapons that are very different in speeds for the purposes of flurry uptime.

Hedin · 07/03/07, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

I don't like surprises, what's the surprise?

it just shows Invigorated cooldown in center of the screen when it's on

If you don't like the position try to edit core.lua

local x=0
local y=50

Nemaa · 07/03/07, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada

93 DPS 2.7 weapon does the same dps as 100 DPS 2.8 weapon when compared to a 2.7 mainhand.

Of course it's only a theory. The java script does not model procs like mongoose, dragonspine trophy, nor the proc of the 2.8 mace what is actually an increase in dps (stealing life does damage, not just healing)
But I wouldn't say the script is not useful at all. I'll try out a lot of weapon combinations.

Stigmata · 07/03/07, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by martin0641

I was comparing the new Vet boots with the weighted values and it seems one pair is worth 62 points and the other 64. I was aiming at 50% raid crit with 1900-2200 atk power between trinkets. I figured the massive amount of crits would outpace the seemingly small amount of damage gains from attack power, especially from WF damage. Especially when I gain so much attack from trinkets and buffs, I thought the crit itself during the 15-20 second trinket periods would be a really big boost. Is 28 attack power really worth .5 crit chance?

50% seems high, ofc no one would turn down having that much crit, but how can u get it even close to that without sacrificing all hit/ap ?

Malan · 07/03/07, 6:55 PM

I'm somewhat curious, Disquette/Pater or anyone else, have we modeled the effect of hitting SS every 10 sec when its lit versus only hitting it when a WF CD is up?

Btw I ran your sim today Pater and it matched EXACTLY the DPS I put out on Mag tonight. Well done sir.

Disquette · 07/03/07, 11:13 PM

What is Mag's armor mitigation?

Hedin · 07/04/07, 1:41 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

I'm somewhat curious, Disquette/Pater or anyone else, have we modeled the effect of hitting SS every 10 sec when its lit versus only hitting it when a WF CD is up?

I see u tried my addon? :-)

Spooky · 07/04/07, 1:43 AM

Thank you for posting this excellent source of information Malan and thank you for those who drafted and contributed to the theorycraft. My eyes were opened on several matters and I know my raid performance will improve as a result.

Magna_FA · 07/04/07, 4:02 AM

Just wanted to put up some data from my testing I did today. I had the Syphon of the Nathrezim (2.8 speed 100dps) from BT and just received a Netherbane (2.6 speed 93dps) and after reading this thread started to wonder which would be better in my main hand, considering so many people saying that you should always put the slower weapon in your off hand to minimize wf procs. But in this case, there is a 7 dps difference in the 2 weapons as well as the speed difference.

So I took my fugly neon axe and went to the Blasted Lands and beat on those level 55 unkillable mobs. I did a run of .5 mill damage with the slower weapon in my main hand, then took the dps measurement from Violation (trying to keep both str and agi totems up at all times), then again but with the faster weapon as suggested in my main hand. Then repeated those 2 tests again to double check and average. I could have probably done it more to be more accurate, but I was already seeing a trend. In this case, it seemed the slower, higher dps, higher damage range weapon was best used in the main hand, rather than having the slow weapon in the off hand. I know it's probably not too accurate, but the difference was on average of the 2 tests, 34 dps difference in favor of the slow weapon in the main hand.

So to double check this, I used Pater's java simulator and put in my weapons and something along the lines of my gear (couldn't remember the exact in raid values, so I just guessed, none the less, no matter the values, it's close enough to illustrate the issue.) And this is what I got:

------------------------------------ ESCS -------------------------------------
-- INPUT DATA -- 
Player AP=2400, H=20.0%, C=36.0%, Haste=0.0%.  SScooldown=10.0s
Player Weapons: MH=170-317/2.6s, OH=196-365/2.8s
Monster Level=73, Armor Mitigation=30.0%
Combat duration: 360000 seconds

-- SWING OUTPUT DATA -- 
MH Wh: Swings=177151 | M=(5.5%), D=(6.5%), G=(24.9%), C=(36.1%), H=(27.1%)
OH Wh: Swings=164301 | M=(5.5%), D=(6.4%), G=(25.1%), C=(36.1%), H=(26.9%)
MH WF: Swings= 70270 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.5%), G=(never), C=(35.7%), H=(57.8%)
OH WF: Swings= 58622 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.5%), G=(never), C=(35.9%), H=(57.6%)
MH SS: Swings= 35992 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.5%), G=(never), C=(35.9%), H=(57.6%)
OH SS: Swings= 33654 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.2%), G=(never), C=(36.0%), H=(57.7%)

-- DAMAGE OUTPUT DATA: 342175512 Total --
MH Wh: Dmg=(34.5%) | G=(16%)[356-466], C=(61%)[948-1243], H=(23%)[476-622]
OH Wh: Dmg=(17.6%) | G=(16%)[195-258], C=(61%)[522-688], H=(23%)[261- 344]
MH WF: Dmg=(23.9%) | G=(never),        C=(55%)[1551-1963], H=(45%)[775-981]
OH WF: Dmg=(12.3%) | G=(never),        C=(55%)[968-1202], H=(45%)[484-601]
MH SS: Dmg=(07.7%) | G=(never),        C=(56%)[949-1243], H=(44%)[476-622]
OH SS: Dmg=(04.0%) | G=(never),        C=(56%)[521-688], H=(44%)[260-344]

Flurried white swings:  MH=85.9%, OH=85.9%

DPS = 950.5
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------ ESCS -------------------------------------
-- INPUT DATA -- 
Player AP=2400, H=20.0%, C=36.0%, Haste=0.0%.  SScooldown=10.0s
Player Weapons: MH=196-365/2.8s, OH=170-317/2.6s
Monster Level=73, Armor Mitigation=30.0%
Combat duration: 360000 seconds

-- SWING OUTPUT DATA -- 
MH Wh: Swings=164272 | M=(5.4%), D=(6.5%), G=(25.1%), C=(36.1%), H=(27.0%)
OH Wh: Swings=177137 | M=(5.6%), D=(6.5%), G=(25.1%), C=(35.8%), H=(27.0%)
MH WF: Swings= 63100 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.4%), G=(never), C=(36.2%), H=(57.4%)
OH WF: Swings= 65392 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.7%), G=(never), C=(36.0%), H=(57.3%)
MH SS: Swings= 35992 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.6%), G=(never), C=(36.0%), H=(57.4%)
OH SS: Swings= 33634 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.5%), G=(never), C=(35.8%), H=(57.7%)

-- DAMAGE OUTPUT DATA: 344599700 Total --
MH Wh: Dmg=(35.0%) | G=(16%)[392-516], C=(61%)[1041-1375], H=(23%)[521-688]
OH Wh: Dmg=(17.1%) | G=(16%)[178-233], C=(61%)[474-622], H=(23%)[238- 311]
MH WF: Dmg=(23.5%) | G=(never),        C=(56%)[1698-2165], H=(44%)[849-1082]
OH WF: Dmg=(12.4%) | G=(never),        C=(56%)[888-1092], H=(44%)[444-546]
MH SS: Dmg=(08.4%) | G=(never),        C=(56%)[1046-1375], H=(44%)[521-688]
OH SS: Dmg=(03.6%) | G=(never),        C=(55%)[475-622], H=(45%)[237-311]

Flurried white swings:  MH=85.8%, OH=85.9%

DPS = 957.2
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's not the dps difference I saw in game on a level 55, but again, the slower weapon in the off hand did not win out. So this goes to show ya, do your own testing on your own circumstances before just throwing that slower weapon in your off hand. In this case, the dps difference out weighed the gain from the weapon speed difference.

I'd like to hear other people's responses and testing in this area, as well as any thoughts and ideas.

Freyalis · 07/04/07, 5:35 AM

Well after running Pater's sim for a while it pretty much confirms what we postulated before in that Potency == Fiery for DPS.

Average over five runs Potency added 9.4 DPS (simulated by adding 40 AP)

Fiery averaged out to 9.52 DPS.

I simulated fiery by calculating proc chance (27% for a 2.7 speed weapon like Planar Edge)
then obtaining number of procs from total MH attacks

Fiery MH = 264552 Attacks @ 27% proc chance

[top] 71429 Fiery Attacks @ 48 avg dmg per for 3,428,592 dmg

9.52 DPS increase

Fiery average damage assumes
* +10% Coe
* +15% Imp Scorch
* +5% Misery
* 1.025 Crit modifier (5% for +50% dmg)
* 0.87 Resist rate modifier assuming Natures Guidance.

So Technically i would say that Potency is better as it doesn't rely on outside variables in order to perform. And of course either are stripped by Crusader or Mongoose.

Brum · 07/04/07, 7:28 AM

Might want to add that War Stomp and heals reset both swing timers, even if it's an invigorated LHW.

Celetroll · 07/04/07, 8:52 AM

Got a question that I can´t quite seem to find answer. While we all agree that haste is good for shamans, then question - how good is exactly stacking different haste - remains bit unclear.

Source of my hesitation is item budget values. As haste does not stacks on 1+1=2 principle, wouldn´t we be better off not stacking haste? Let me explain.

Let´s imagine that we have two identical dps output equipment for the same slot. One with HR, other with CR/AP or what ever. Now, when we pick up another HR item and stack it up with our current one (don´t forget flurry as well), then would HR stacking formula render our previously equal HR item inferior in dps output to AP/CR/HR item, that stacks on 1+1=2 bases? Since you get full benefit from AP/CR/HR but only partial from HR stacks. So when we weight and HR item, it must have way superior dps stats when compared with a single item?

That question is becoming more and more important to me every day, since we are raiding BT. Atm i could apply for http://www.thottbot.com/i32749, but I cant really figure out, is it worth the dkp or not. As well as should I use battle drums while bloodlusted or wait until bloodlust wears off, what gives more overall dps?

Boro · 07/04/07, 9:13 AM

Sorry if I missed the link to this earlier in this thread but could somebody provide it for me please.

Disquette · 07/04/07, 9:20 AM

Magna, this is acknowledged in the "Itemizing Enhancement" thread. Having a slow main hand is important as well.

Malan, not to take away from Pater's sim at all, but about it matching your dps figures... This would assume you had 100% time on target for Mag, had 0 weapon procs, no Heroism, and never used earthshock/flameshock... And that Mag, after any curses, fairy fire, sunders, etc, happens to have exactly the armor reduction that you have in the sim.

If you really want to show something cool, do the blasted lands tests (armor value = 23% mitigation) and match it up to the sim when using nothing special, then add more variables as you go (storm strike, windfury).

Malan · 07/04/07, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Brum

Might want to add that War Stomp and heals reset both swing timers, even if it's an invigorated LHW.

Well the war stomp I understand since its a cast time, but do we have combat log confirmation of the Invigorated reset?

Originally Posted by Boro

Sorry if I missed the link to this earlier in this thread but could somebody provide it for me please.

Its on the first post of the thread, down toward the bottom.

Originally Posted by Disquette

Malan, not to take away from Pater's sim at all, but about it matching your dps figures... This would assume you had 100% time on target for Mag, had 0 weapon procs, no Heroism, and never used earthshock/flameshock...

Oops forgot all about that.

Khlysti · 07/04/07, 11:46 AM

Invigorated does reset swing timer, I can go out and get a log report if needed, but casting an invigorated lhw right before a mh swing is due results in me waiting ~2 sec (from when the lhw was cast) for the next mh swing.

As to the comment on stacking haste, the game simply adds the haste ratings together and then applies them, so it is indeed 1+1=2, were it to apply them sequentially (like it does with flurry/heroism over something hasted by rating) then it would actually give more dps not less.

Malan · 07/04/07, 4:46 PM

What about the enhance shaman who take Nature's Swiftness, does using that reset the timer as well?

Nite_Moogle · 07/04/07, 4:49 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

What about the enhance shaman who take Nature's Swiftness, does using that reset the timer as well?

I had a 0/13/x build for a while and healing with NS definitely resets the swing timer.

• Valoran · 07/04/07, 6:05 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

What about the enhance shaman who take Nature's Swiftness, does using that reset the timer as well?

AFAIK, this is the normal behaviour when a global cooldown is used.