I don't have macros set up for them simply because I find it is very situational. It depends on the fight. If I can spare the mana, I'll lay down GoA a few times for a bit extra DPS, but by no means will I put it in my rotation for DPS.
That's a very silly thing to say.
What do you mean, 'i don't believe in totem twisting' ?
What don't you believe in? that it boosts dps a lot more than just regular totem dropping?
How can you say a group dps boost is situational? I would say the exact contrary, not using it is very situational, as they are a few fights for which it's not really adapted. But for the grand majority of the raids, having more dps is always good. And there is no better use of your GCD than to twist these totems for the simple and obvious reason that giving this agi to your whole group is immensly superior to doing a few more shocks, or whatever your using your GCD for.
Why bother letting WF tick for 5 seconds? You're giving yourself like 3 seconds of GoA time like that. It refreshes the buff the instant its dropped, you can use GoA the instant you come out of GCD and WF will remain there for 8 seconds.
Windfury totem on a weapon has a duration of 9 secs BUT it refreshes every 5 secs.
Basically he's using the first 5 second window before the first refresh for other things then twisting. At the 5 seconds the duration is increased for anyone in range to 9 again and dropping GoA there gives him a full twist time of GoA.
You'd have to time it very good though since if you put it down just slightly to fast by misstake (timers in wow leave quite a bit to wish for) your group would have ~8 seconds without Windfury. At worst with instant twisting your group would have ~1 second without Windfury and that's only if you are to late refreshing totems and that's still a possibility with the above method so it adds to that as well.
Enhancer -Ace2- (Totem Timers, configurable AEP, Enhancement Itemization Points, GemPicker and more) RaidSpy -Ace2- (Prints out the checks done by raid officers in chatframe)
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. - Benjamin Franklin
Windfury totem on a weapon has a duration of 9 secs BUT it refreshes every 5 secs.
Basically he's using the first 5 second window before the first refresh for other things then twisting. At the 5 seconds the duration is increased for anyone in range to 9 again and dropping GoA there gives him a full twist time of GoA.
I think we all understood that.
The criticism isn't about losing WF uptime but GoA! Basically with this rotation not only do you miss out on having GoA down and thus more critchance when you SS, but your group lose about 27% uptime on GoA (i assume previous poster calculation is correct, i'm too lazy to check on it but it sounds about right).
As a previous poster says, why bother doing a totem twist if you don't optimize it?
If you look at what I quoted I think it's clear not everyone got it, granted the explanation was mixed up in 2 posts previous to mine but can't hurt to clarify it considering how often things get asked repeatedly in this thread. Also one of them was wrong about rounding, blizzard is rounding everything I've checked up not down.
Originally Posted by Shakkha
As a previous poster says, why bother doing a totem twist if you don't optimize it?
That's a stupid comment, that's like saying a small improvment is worse then no improvment at all. Perhaps he can't sustain it mana wise, I really don't know his reasons.
I never suggested he shouldn't twist all out, personally I believe twisting all out would be safer, easier and better.
Last edited by Tristan : 10/11/07 at 5:43 AM.
Enhancer -Ace2- (Totem Timers, configurable AEP, Enhancement Itemization Points, GemPicker and more) RaidSpy -Ace2- (Prints out the checks done by raid officers in chatframe)
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. - Benjamin Franklin
Well. First and most important reason is mana. I cant seem to sustain 85% goa uptime + shocking, while i can do 65% just fine (where did 27% difference come from dunno). For me its either shocking every 6 seconds or full totem twist or the combintation of two I posted.
Moreover I seem to always find things to do in spare gcd be it decursing or refreshing totems and shields or talking shit in party chat. In perfect case scenario where mob fight is static and I can use full SR duration every cooldown I probably would be able to maintain faster twisting whith some shocks but those cases are few in raid encounters. guild is up to kael and only fight I can think of where I might do it is Morogrim (and maybe 30% of fathom lord). And as for timing its quite ez with some addons I found in this thread
Well. First and most important reason is mana. I cant seem to sustain 85% goa uptime + shocking, while i can do 65% just fine (where did 27% difference come from dunno). For me its either shocking every 6 seconds or full totem twist or the combintation of two I posted.
Moreover I seem to always find things to do in spare gcd be it decursing or refreshing totems and shields or talking shit in party chat. In perfect case scenario where mob fight is static and I can use full SR duration every cooldown I probably would be able to maintain faster twisting whith some shocks but those cases are few in raid encounters. guild is up to kael and only fight I can think of where I might do it is Morogrim (and maybe 30% of fathom lord). And as for timing its quite ez with some addons I found in this thread
85/65 = 27%. When you compare two alternate methods, you compare them with each other, not an impossible maximum (100%).
The problem is you don't justify your combination method of twisting and shocking. If you have mana issues sustaining both, you determine which one gives more damage over a fight and stop doing the other one except when you have excess mana. Attempting to do both half-arsed is silly.
You have more than enough time to refresh totems and shields no matter what rotation you take, this is a poor excuse for a reason (as I've pointed out). As for decursing, I find it pretty rare that I need to 'decurse' someone that my cleansing totem or a healer hasn't already taken care of. I'd be interested to see a WWS of any fight where you're doing significant amounts of cleansing.
As for prioritizing talking shit in /p instead of trying to maximise your contribution, that's your choice to do, just don't try to use it as a justification for the rest of us.
Basically he's using the first 5 second window before the first refresh for other things then twisting. At the 5 seconds the duration is increased for anyone in range to 9 again and dropping GoA there gives him a full twist time of GoA.
You'd have to time it very good though since if you put it down just slightly to fast by misstake (timers in wow leave quite a bit to wish for) your group would have ~8 seconds without Windfury. At worst with instant twisting your group would have ~1 second without Windfury and that's only if you are to late refreshing totems and that's still a possibility with the above method so it adds to that as well.
I'm aware of what he meant, and I agree with your 2nd point - screwing up that particular rotation that he's laid out is by far worse then if I screw up doing an instant twist rotation. He screws up, his group goes a GoA window with no WF buff. I screw up, group gets WF but GoA window gets cut off a little bit.
85/65 = 27%. When you compare two alternate methods, you compare them with each other, not an impossible maximum (100%).
The problem is you don't justify your combination method of twisting and shocking. If you have mana issues sustaining both, you determine which one gives more damage over a fight and stop doing the other one except when you have excess mana. Attempting to do both half-arsed is silly.
You have more than enough time to refresh totems and shields no matter what rotation you take, this is a poor excuse for a reason (as I've pointed out). As for decursing, I find it pretty rare that I need to 'decurse' someone that my cleansing totem or a healer hasn't already taken care of. I'd be interested to see a WWS of any fight where you're doing significant amounts of cleansing.
As for prioritizing talking shit in /p instead of trying to maximise your contribution, that's your choice to do, just don't try to use it as a justification for the rest of us.
I am always top or second on decursing done on vashij for example(killing nagas. all mages locks melee tanks are within range)
And as for dps contribution. The question is: is 20% more total uptime of goa is better than damage contribution of shocking. I bet answer is yes but only till patch. And only in perfect oe close to perftect group( we often raid without warrior or with just 1 rogue)
I've done some formatting changes to the OP, it now has very large section headers and a table of contents so that you may direct nubs to the appropriate locations.
Oh good someone didn't screw with my browser settings
Though I think having the section titles THAT big is a little overbearing... Though it is easier to find any given section on a whim, its a bit harder to read as the titles are so attention grabbing, but then i am just nitpicking
But, on for my question, I am a newb(as the guild name proclaims), but been reading this thread for a week or so now, so much information! I have probably only read maybe a third or so of all the comments... so sorry if this has been covered.
I know in the OP regarding MH weapons, it says use the crafted mace over the crafted axe (unless your an orc, which I am not) and it seems the reason given is because of the belt which gives +25 weapon skills, but not axes...
Is the mace still better than the axe without that belt? because once I do get to 70... My guild is still going to be a long way from Vashj
Even so, I find myself slightly leaning towards the mace since the proc can push the weapon speed out of the "blackhole" between 1.41 and 1.50 which it seems Heroism + Flurry will drop any 2.6-2.8 speed weapon into (unless my calculations are wrong which is entirely possible ;p )
There has been calculations about this so called "gap". It isn't detrimental to our DPS as first believed, so it doesn't matter.
For weapon calculations, it's best to use Yo's sim, as linked in the OP.
Edit: To answer your question: yes. The difference is so small that it really doesn't matter much. I believe the mace comes out a little over the axe, but the difference is really really small.
Yeah I know, hit wise it makes no difference, but I suppose it is more a matter of opinion on, which is more useful? The haste proc or static AP and CR, haste probably scales the best between the two... Or is the difference really so minimal it just becomes an aesthetic choice?
**
Hmm, yeah, using Yo's just default stats and changing between +48 ap 1% crit or the haste proc, seems to estimate the haste being better by 17dps... Being a sim obviously that can fluctuate by actual experienced procs during a given fight... So I guess it really doesn't make much difference, but the mace would probably pull ahead very slightly more often than fall behind...
I'm aware of what he meant, and I agree with your 2nd point - screwing up that particular rotation that he's laid out is by far worse then if I screw up doing an instant twist rotation. He screws up, his group goes a GoA window with no WF buff. I screw up, group gets WF but GoA window gets cut off a little bit.
I'm a little confused by what everyone means by 'screwing up'. Unless you drop GoA early, worst case senario is that you don't get the full 9-10s of GoA + WF. I did my totem twisting this way when I had mana problems (read: Paladins weren't doing their jobs) but it's a pain in the ass when learning new encounters. Double clicking then having 8 seconds to deal with the encounter is much easier. On the other hand, having 10 full seconds of GoA usually means more WF crits.
Great work with the contents Malan, but I doubt it will keep the people who weren't reading the OP from asking those silly questions.
I've done some formatting changes to the OP, it now has very large section headers and a table of contents so that you may direct nubs to the appropriate locations.
Sorry to nitpick, but would it be possible to scale up the table in "VIII.7.2 Is a 2H weapon viable for Enhancement DPS?" (or allow it to be link enlarged)?
Last edited by Vapid : 10/11/07 at 1:05 PM.
Reason: clarity
I'm a little confused by what everyone means by 'screwing up'. Unless you drop GoA early, worst case senario is that you don't get the full 9-10s of GoA + WF. I did my totem twisting this way when I had mana problems (read: Paladins weren't doing their jobs) but it's a pain in the ass when learning new encounters. Double clicking then having 8 seconds to deal with the encounter is much easier. On the other hand, having 10 full seconds of GoA usually means more WF crits.
Great work with the contents Malan, but I doubt it will keep the people who weren't reading the OP from asking those silly questions.
Screwing up of me would be quite hard. I got a bar in my UI that shows duration of WF buff. I drop goa when it refreshes then drop wf when i reaches 0. After some practice its now second nature and i dont even think about it.
@Yo, did you change your sim model recently, DPS output dropped a fair amount since I last compared values.
Example:
2500 AP (without UR), 40% Crit, 20% Hit, 0% Haste, 4400 Armor, two 100 DPS weapons
Disable all buffs, including Mongoose etc.
Your sim outputs: 492 DPS WhiteDPS, 100% UR, 88% Flurry
Armor Reduction: 29% for 4400 Armor
Let's do some math:
White DPS for two identical weapons factor: 1.5 (offhand dps is 0.5)
I assume 5% Dodge for now and 28% miss
Adjusted Attacktable factor (100-28+20-5+40)/100 = 1.27
Adjusted flurried Weaponspeed = 2.072 (12*2.6 + 88*2.0)/100
Flurry Factor = 1.254 (2.6/2.072)
Weaponmastery: 1.1
Now DPS calc should be: 0.71*1.5*1.27*1.254*1.1*(2500*1.1/14+100) = 553 DPS
This is some 60 DPS more and the gap increases with more/better stats.
This is just for WhiteDPS, similar method can be applied to windfury (same calculation to some degree).
If we enable only Dual Wielding, disable every other Talent and remove the Armor completely (0 Armor) your result is 510:
The formula for that would be 1.5*1.27*(2500/14+100) = 530
You probably assume a higher dodge rate somewhere, if you assume 9% (which can be explained by applying a similar partial weaponskill dependent function on dodge) I get your values, if you do not assume 9% dodge, then you maybe missed something.
If we assume 28% hit, 0 AP, 0 Crit etc. and the two 100 DPS weapons, your result is 128
now hit and crit are out of the equation, your assume dodge value is close to 15%.
I don't know what other criteria you consider while swinging but something is obviously lowering the dps more than it should. Do you assume parry from behind or any other further reduction from within the attacktable?
I've always thought the DPS values output were way too high anyways (was putting me at like 1200-1300), so if they've scaled down that might be better.
@Vapid - odd. No idea how it got so small, I'll work on fixing that.
Did you see a DPS increase switching from Dragonstrike to Syphon in the MH? I got my 2nd yesterday and beat on blasted lands mobs for 30 min periods with different weapon combinations and double Syphon is coming up 6% lower than Dragonstrike, when I run the sim with the different combinations the gap narrows to 2%.
Sims and mobs 13 levels lower aside I want to believe that Syphons are better but I just can't, any insight from those of you who have switched from Dragonstrike to Syphon if your raid dps increased/decreased/didn't change ect?
I've always thought the DPS values output were way too high anyways (was putting me at like 1200-1300), so if they've scaled down that might be better.
@Vapid - odd. No idea how it got so small, I'll work on fixing that.
Actually scaling down the DPS should not be necessary for simulation.
I know that my Windfury calculation is a bit too high in my model, but the white dps should not differ that much at all.
@Yo, did you change your sim model recently, DPS output dropped a fair amount since I last compared values.
Example:
2500 AP (without UR), 40% Crit, 20% Hit, 0% Haste, 4400 Armor, two 100 DPS weapons
Disable all buffs, including Mongoose etc.
Your sim outputs: 492 DPS WhiteDPS, 100% UR, 88% Flurry
Armor Reduction: 29% for 4400 Armor
Let's do some math:
White DPS for two identical weapons factor: 1.5 (offhand dps is 0.5)
I assume 5% Dodge for now and 28% miss
Adjusted Attacktable factor (100-28+20-5+40)/100 = 1.27
Adjusted flurried Weaponspeed = 2.072 (12*2.6 + 88*2.0)/100
Flurry Factor = 1.254 (2.6/2.072)
Weaponmastery: 1.1
Now DPS calc should be: 0.71*1.5*1.27*1.254*1.1*(2500*1.1/14+100) = 553 DPS
This is some 60 DPS more and the gap increases with more/better stats.
This is just for WhiteDPS, similar method can be applied to windfury (same calculation to some degree).
If we enable only Dual Wielding, disable every other Talent and remove the Armor completely (0 Armor) your result is 510:
The formula for that would be 1.5*1.27*(2500/14+100) = 530
You probably assume a higher dodge rate somewhere, if you assume 9% (which can be explained by applying a similar partial weaponskill dependent function on dodge) I get your values, if you do not assume 9% dodge, then you maybe missed something.
If we assume 28% hit, 0 AP, 0 Crit etc. and the two 100 DPS weapons, your result is 128
now hit and crit are out of the equation, your assume dodge value is close to 15%.
I don't know what other criteria you consider while swinging but something is obviously lowering the dps more than it should. Do you assume parry from behind or any other further reduction from within the attacktable?
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see you include glancing blows here, and I believe Yo's sim has them.
10/11/07, 5:04 AM
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