Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 147

Mextro · 10/12/07, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by BoinKlasik

if there was any sort of cooldown, the line between it being better than astral winds would get VERY small. The relic would have no right being purple. I double it would even be useful with a proc rate under like 20% or much of a cooldown. It shouldn't take a ton of math to prove an epic is better than a blue (although that appears to only be my opinion, not blizzard's).

They haven't removed the mp5 on enhancement tiers so i don't i think this relic will be any better then astrall winds.

Nite_Moogle · 10/12/07, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by xereva

Uhm, isn't the Astral Winds totem 80 AP on each Windfury Weapon attack, while the 110 AP is on ALL attacks?

It is, but if that thing is up for more than 15 seconds per minute when you lay on full shock spam I'll be, well, shocked. I'm guessing 1 PPM, which makes it pretty much terrible for anyone that does totem twisting.

BoinKlasik · 10/12/07, 11:34 AM

although that 160 number you just quoted makes me wonder if the 40% effect to WF attacks from talents affects that 80 ap per weapon number.

Originally Posted by Jyca

Stumbled across a link(which ive now lost, typical) where the stonebreaker proc had been recorded on wowhead and was stated as a 50% chance to proc.

here most likely. 50% proc rate + no cooldown is a passive 55/66 ap (depending on spec: 60/12 (2 shocks to make a proc)*110/10 (ap/duration of proc)
reverberation 60/10*110/10) I think that is the correct math.

I think in both of those cases the new relic would be clearly superior since it does not appear from the wowhead link to be on a PPM (ppm effects don't have proc chances.

sign me up for some of that.

Malan · 10/12/07, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by BoinKlasik

I think in both of those cases the new relic would be clearly superior since it does not appear from the wowhead link to be on a PPM (ppm effects don't have proc chances.

If and only if you are using shocks on every cooldown. If you are twisting or holding off shocks, less benefit.

berg · 10/12/07, 11:54 AM

Wow that arena totem is amazingly bad. The only use I can think of for any of them is that they should provide junk buffs to fend off purge spam.

I am also truly disappointed in the new badge rewards. They stated clearly that the intent of the new rewards was to fill itemization holes for offspecs. Looking at those rewards every piece we would truly crave is plate and all of the mail is hunter/resto/elemental loot. I feel bad for the guys in smaller guilds that were banking on these to gear up.

Nite_Moogle · 10/12/07, 11:56 AM

There's not much melee mail, but there are at least a few good pieces (they do have int on them, sadly) and there's a ton of feral loot to steal.

Malan · 10/12/07, 11:57 AM

The feral items though have increased armor, so even those are reduced in item points available for normal stats.

Galeyra · 10/12/07, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

According to a post in the 2.3 PTR changes thread, Orc Racial was changed to 5% crit (I have not verified this) and Belt of One Hundred Deaths is just going to be a 1:1 swap of Weapon Skill to Weapon Expertise.

Orc Racial is just 1% crit with axes and twohanded axes, but your right about the belt.

BoinKlasik · 10/12/07, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

If and only if you are using shocks on every cooldown. If you are twisting or holding off shocks, less benefit.

Yes, good point, a disclaimer would have to be made that this is under best case (for the shaman's personal dps) circumstances. Though, with the changes to shock mana costs (through the crit talent) and my change in guilds depriving me of a dedicated paladin for JoW I have moved back to doing full time shock rotations. But the math still holds true if the shaman is just shocking.

Malan · 10/12/07, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Galeyra

Orc Racial is just 1% crit with axes and twohanded axes, but your right about the belt.

Ouch, that's a lot worse.

berg · 10/12/07, 12:12 PM

I am probably a little more annoyed than I should be but the itemization is really starting to grind on me.

It is easy to think 'There should not be melee mail cause only one person would use it.'
In reality this is simply unfair to us and I think we should be making more of an issue out of it.

There is tons of amazing loot for us out there, but the majority of it plate. I feel that atleast half of those drops should be mail.

Good gear designed for us would NOT be exclusive to us. It could be shared amongst Enhance shaman, Ret pallies and Arms/Fury warriors. Instead of all of those classes sharing loot that is perfect for them, they get free armor that they do not use and we get nothing.

david0925 · 10/12/07, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by berg

I am probably a little more annoyed than I should be but the itemization is really starting to grind on me.

It is easy to think 'There should not be melee mail cause only one person would use it.'
In reality this is simply unfair to us and I think we should be making more of an issue out of it.

For example
Rogues and Hunters both got amazing T6 and random drops to back them up.
Ferals got random pieces crafted to their needs
Moonkin got random pieces crafted to their needs
Elemental got random pieces crafted to their needs
Plate with healing on it etc etc.

There is tons of amazing loot for us out there, but it is all plate. I feel that atleast half of those drops should be mail.

Good gear designed for us would NOT be exclusive to us. It could be shared amongst Enhance shaman, Ret pallies and Arms/Fury warriors. Instead of all of those classes sharing loot that is perfect for them, they get some free armor and we get nothing.

First of all, I would agree with you about the lack of proper enhancement shaman gear. However, I am strongly opposed to diluting the loot table to adding items that only 1 spec of a specific class can use optimally.

As a Druid main, I can tell you that there are no proper feral itemization in T6 content, with the exception of the set pieces. The fix they did was changing our talent from 20% strength in cat form, to 10% AP in cat form. While there are still a lot of whiners out there about lack of items optimzed to ferals, it is much better that, with this design, Druids can comfortably share drops with Rogues without gimping themselves.

Similarly, it would be nice if mp5 is somehow incorporated into the talents (for example, 100% of mp5 is converted to crit rating. Don't argue with how good/bad this actually is please, being just an example), instead of trying to cater to the needs of current enhancement shaman and further diluting the loot table.

Also in this patch, Retdin's mechanics changed so they can easily share warrior plates. I would hope they change moonkin's armor benefits to maybe 200%, but give them the ability to wear mail, so that they can share drops with elemental shaman.

berg · 10/12/07, 12:26 PM

I am not asking for gear to say "Classes:Shaman" on it.

My point is that fury/ret could use the same gear optimally if it were mail. They dont need that AC, it is just icing to them. They would never elect to tank in that gear over real tanking items.

They do not need to dilute anything. Our dream itemization already exists, we just cannot wear it.

Hamilburg · 10/12/07, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle

Astral Winds: 160 more AP (effectively) every time WF procs, which is 10-15 times a minute.
At 12 PPM, that's 1920 bonus AP per minute
vs
110 AP on shock trinket that has a maximum PPM chance of 10 for most builds, and an optimistic probable uptime of 30% or so at 2 PPM. That'd put it at 2200 bonus AP per minute, but it's reliant on shock spam which is not as effective as twisting for most people.

Keep farming mana tombs.

How the heck are you arriving at these numbers?
If I adopt your method of tabulating things in terms of AP-swing/minute units I can arrive at your figure of 1920 for Astral Winds.

Assuming a 33% uptime for the shock totem I would come out with:
4 Windfury procs - 8 swings at 110 AP each. 880 AP
Presume 50% flurry uptime, and dual 2.6 speed weapons, is 8.7 swings with both offhand and mainhand. Accounting for the offhand penalty - 13.05 swings, or 1435.5 AP.
2 Stormstrikes in that 20 second uptime, for an additional 3 swings (counting the offhand as .5 again). 330 AP.
---------
Total AP contribution 2645 AP-swing/minute.
Not taken into account - Improved Windfury boosting the AP contribution of Windfury attacks higher
- Different miss chances for autoattack vs stormstrike/windfury
- Glancing blows

And for not working with totem twisting - A pure shocker can get off 10 shocks per minute. A totem twister can get off... what... 80% of that (37.5% of time taken by twisting, presuming an 8 second cycle. 15% of time taken by Stormstrike. Shocking every cooldown would be 25% which would still be allowed). At 80% of optimal uptime (caused by cooldowns landing on top of each other and Earthshock being low priority on the totempole), the new totem still would seem competitive if you presume that 30% uptime. If mana is an issue, Rank 1 Earth Shock is still in your spellbook.

Illundai · 10/12/07, 12:40 PM

I could test all the questions asked on the previous page and even check out the new Totem's uptime... but yeah, Character Copy is down. -.-

Nemaa · 10/12/07, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Hamilburg

...If mana is an issue, Rank 1 Earth Shock is still in your spellbook.

Take it into consideration that it can be possible that lower rank shocks have lower procrate for the relic (or no procrate at all)

ChaguraED · 10/12/07, 12:51 PM

With the new Changes to the Orc Axe Racial, will the Black Planar Edge, be less desirable then the Dragonmaw? 3% +Hit was a significant stat, but will 1% Crit not be significant enough to tip the scales in it's favor?

SentinelBorg · 10/12/07, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by david0925

First of all, I would agree with you about the lack of proper enhancement shaman gear. However, I am strongly opposed to diluting the loot table to adding items that only 1 spec of a specific class can use optimally.

As a Druid main, I can tell you that there are no proper feral itemization in T6 content, with the exception of the set pieces. The fix they did was changing our talent from 20% strength in cat form, to 10% AP in cat form. While there are still a lot of whiners out there about lack of items optimzed to ferals, it is much better that, with this design, Druids can comfortably share drops with Rogues without gimping themselves.

Similarly, it would be nice if mp5 is somehow incorporated into the talents (for example, 100% of mp5 is converted to crit rating. Don't argue with how good/bad this actually is please, being just an example), instead of trying to cater to the needs of current enhancement shaman and further diluting the loot table.

Also in this patch, Retdin's mechanics changed so they can easily share warrior plates. I would hope they change moonkin's armor benefits to maybe 200%, but give them the ability to wear mail, so that they can share drops with elemental shaman.

It would be a start if at last our own special T6 set had the right stats. But even this is packed with useless mp5 and too much int.

Peterbilt · 10/12/07, 1:00 PM

My apologies for interrupting the patch info discussion, and I apologize in advance if this question has been answered previously. I've scoured all 140+ pages of the thread, but my head's still spinning from the info. ; )

It's been stated that Dragonstrike is one of the 'best' MH weapons for enhancement. It's also been stated that the Merciless Gladiator <whatever> is the best OH. I'm currently wielding Dragonmaw and Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver, and before I invest in Nether Vortexes for the upgrade, I need some advice.

My thoughts;

Dragonstrike is .10 slower than the Merciless Gladiator OH, thus the OH is receiving the first chance for WF procs after the hidden CD.

My guild is in Black Temple, so I have access to Rising Tide. As a matter of fact, no one else wants it, so it's mine when it drops.

Would it be more advisable to go for Rising Tide as MH, and Merciless Gladiator in OH? The speeds would mean the MH would catch most of my WF procs after CD. Or does Dragonstrike, and the haste, have an inherent AEP value I'm not seeing that makes it more DPS even with the speed offset? Simply put, Dragonstrike or Rising Tide? (Syphon isn't an option right now, since there's a long line of rogues in front of me waiting for it. = / )

Malan · 10/12/07, 1:06 PM

Yo's Simulator would be your best answer, figure out the stat difference for each option and then plug them into the sim on a long time span, run each scenario several times, then compare the results.

BoinKlasik · 10/12/07, 1:09 PM

@Peterbilt you prolly want to just spend some time with Yo!'s simulator before people start yelling at you

edit: Malan = ninja

Peterbilt · 10/12/07, 1:11 PM

lol ok, I will.

I get shaky and nauseous when people yell at me. = (

BBL after trying Yo's!

rava · 10/12/07, 1:18 PM

Originally Posted by Peterbilt

(Syphon isn't an option right now, since there's a long line of rogues in front of me waiting for it. = / )

Tell your rogues to man up and use swords.

Originally Posted by Hamburg

And for not working with totem twisting - A pure shocker can get off 10 shocks per minute. A totem twister can get off... what... 80% of that (37.5% of time taken by twisting, presuming an 8 second cycle. 15% of time taken by Stormstrike. Shocking every cooldown would be 25% which would still be allowed). At 80% of optimal uptime (caused by cooldowns landing on top of each other and Earthshock being low priority on the totempole), the new totem still would seem competitive if you presume that 30% uptime. If mana is an issue, Rank 1 Earth Shock is still in your spellbook.

Currently? <50% of someone who shocks on cd. I can tell you've never played with totems before and think that mana and gcd's grow on trees. Shamanistic focus will play in for like another 15-20% of available shocks with GCD being your main hinderance(4 front loaded globals = no second shock per rotation window). You could mix up the rotation a little and put a shock earlier on which would just delay your actual benefit to a raid, I guess.

This is stuff I'd really like to test myself rather than read speculation or 2nd hand info from terrible WoW forums, but character copy is so amazing.

Malan · 10/12/07, 1:40 PM

If anyone out there knows how to write firefox plugins, I would *love* an AEP calculator that would store my personal AEP values, and then allow me to input an item link from wowhead or something, and calculate the AEP value for me.

Hamilburg · 10/12/07, 2:09 PM

Originally Posted by rava

Tell your rogues to man up and use swords.

Currently? <50% of someone who shocks on cd. I can tell you've never played with totems before and think that mana and gcd's grow on trees. Shamanistic focus will play in for like another 15-20% of available shocks with GCD being your main hinderance(4 front loaded globals = no second shock per rotation window). You could mix up the rotation a little and put a shock earlier on which would just delay your actual benefit to a raid, I guess.

This is stuff I'd really like to test myself rather than read speculation or 2nd hand info from terrible WoW forums, but character copy is so amazing.

http://elitistjerks.com/505038-post3526.html

80% shocks, 100% windfury uptime, 65% GoA/TA uptime.
Then it becomes a measure of 20% GoA uptime vs the shocks and benefit possible benefit from the new totem.

Certainly the new totem is aimed at shocking, it'd be silly to suggest otherwise.