Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 148

Beroll · 10/12/07, 2:10 PM

Originally Posted by Krish

That's the new PvP totem. There is also one from heroic badges that is a chance on casting a shock spell to increase AP by 110 for 10 seconds. Whether or not this is better than the Totem of the Astral Winds is entirely dependent upon the proc rate and possible internal CD. There's so much I wanted to test on the PTR, and I'm hoping someone here has been able to get onto them.

If you are able to get onto the PTR, a few things that I'd love to see tested:

1) The uptime of the Ashtongue Talisman of Vision (even some simple blasted lands testing should give us a good starting point).

2) The uptime of the new relic slot item mentioned above.

3) The exact mana returned by each globe of water shield.

4) The amount of time that the buff from Shamanistic Focus (reduces the cost of your next shock spell by 60% after landing a melee critical strike) lasts.

5) Is Shamanistic Rage dispellable?

6) What are the new stats on the Belt of One Hundred Deaths?

7) Has the orc racial for axe weapon skill been changed?

There must be other simple-to-test things others would like to know as well, but those five would give us some much-needed clarification.

1) Not horrible like I wrote first but 50% chance to proc seems to be realistic now
2) -
3) 204
4) 15s
5) It's Magic so I think yes
6) -
7) 1% Crit to Axes...

Malan · 10/12/07, 2:14 PM

15 second Shamanistic Focus buff? Well that'll be 100% uptime then.

Beroll · 10/12/07, 2:19 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

15 second Shamanistic Focus buff? Well that'll be 100% uptime then.

It is and the "ding" sound everytime it procs makes me mad atm ;x

everwatch · 10/12/07, 2:56 PM

Originally Posted by Sebudai

Strength has an AEP value of 2.2. It's the same for all shaman. As far as gem choices, I use +5 Strength/+5 Crit Rating for yellow sockets, +5 Strength/+7 Stamina for blue sockets, and +10 Strength for red sockets.

Anyway, your comparison does not take into account the difference between Skyshatter Grips and Fists of Mukoa. They are not equal. Here is what the comparison looks like based off of my AEP values:

Shoulders of the Hidden Predator - 222.5
Midnight Chestguard - 353.5
Fists of Mukoa - 208.3
Bow-stitched Leggings - 303.5

Total AEP - 1087.8

Skyshatter Pauldrons 221.4
Skyshatter Tunic - 284
Skyshatter Grips - 201.7
Skyshatter Pants - 273.6
4 Piece Set Bonus - 70

Total AEP - 1050.7

A total difference of 37.1 AEP.

A 10% reduction to the mana cost of my shock spells is not worth more to me than 37.1 AEP. I do not assign that set bonus any value at all. I never run out of mana. For me, at least, this set bonus literally does nothing of any value. It will be even more meaningless after patch 2.3(unless they change it, which is very possible).

Another important factor to consider is eventually we will be upgrading our loot in the Sunwell Plateau. Once we upgrade one of our four pieces of T6 we are going to lose that set bonus. The non-T6 route will have a much smoother transition because it's not relying on a set bonus to make up for inferior stat allocation.

Maybe when my gear is at your point mana won't be an issue for me. However totem twisting, shocking, and SS runs me OOM. So I guess I look at if differently. However your point that the mana changes in 2.3 will make it moot anyways is quite accurate, nor can I argue the new instace/loot transition. A 37 AEP loss doesn't bug me much however to be honest with you when it means I can get my loot "now". There's still items I have never even seen drop once ever in all the months of raiding 5-6 nights a week on average in Kara, SSC, and TK. Items that my guild has never seen drop once even when it was an "off night" for me. That kind of luck makes me just lean towards Tier armor when possible to avoid waiting who knows how long for that one item to drop.

One question about your AEP.

I've noticed that a lot of people find that their numbers on the Sims show very varying results for how important each stat is. Yo's studies and findings have changed a lot of numbers for high end shaman, and I've yet to see anyone refute his results to a significant degree with support. But as such, I've not seen any changes to the stat weights listed in the OP by Malan. Before I started using Yo's Sim I just wanted to ask if there was any line of reasoning to show his Sim as inaccurate? Note that the main reason I ask is Malan's OP stat weights do not reflect differing AEP values found by better geared Shaman or make a significant mention that better geared shaman will find AEP weights to change as certain stats reach a "plateu" state.

Malan · 10/12/07, 2:57 PM

everwatch - I've been lazy and have not put together an "early shaman AEP" and "late T6 shaman AEP" numbers.

I did add a line (I think I did?) about how those numbers are averages for mid-geared shaman and that anyone differing wildly in gear levels would do best to use the Sim to create their own. I think we need an agreed upon average set of values though, otherwise discussion is meaningless as everyone would have a totally different viewpoint of an item.

[e] Yah here is what I put in the OP -

Note that these values were produced using an average geared shaman in the SSC/TK gear range. It is advised that if you fall far below or far above that value of gear, that you use Yo's Simulator (linked near the bottom) to determine your own, individualized AEP values.

everwatch · 10/12/07, 3:07 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

everwatch - I've been lazy and have not put together an "early shaman AEP" and "late T6 shaman AEP" numbers.

I did add a line (I think I did?) about how those numbers are averages for mid-geared shaman and that anyone differing wildly in gear levels would do best to use the Sim to create their own. I think we need an agreed upon average set of values though, otherwise discussion is meaningless as everyone would have a totally different viewpoint of an item.

[e] Yah here is what I put in the OP -

Wow, I'm sorry. I even just went back and re-read the entire OP. I missed it. I try to avoid doing that. My bad. Guess I'll have to stop being lazy finally and download Yo's sim. Sigh. I got my T6 gloves now (which I'm perfectly happy with), but have been passing on all other of the Tier slot items because I have not been sure what items to take. Thanks for all of the input and advice.

Malan · 10/12/07, 3:08 PM

I installed the WoWEquip addon the other day, I'll try to hop in tonight and get some stat values for a low-end gear shaman and generate some AEP values for it.

Beroll · 10/12/07, 3:11 PM

Just finished doing 103 Stormstrikes on the PTR. The Power Surge buff was up 50 times.

Malan · 10/12/07, 3:18 PM

So new value of the Ashtongue would be ... 275 * 10 * 0.5/10 = 137.5
Less value than DST and Madness of the Betrayer now.

• Krish · 10/12/07, 3:50 PM

Stonebreaker's Totem has a 50% chance to proc, according to the spell effect linked at wowhead. Elemental Strength - Spells - World of Warcraft

I haven't been able to decipher if it's a 50% chance on cast or on hit. With a duration of 10 seconds, if you're shocking about every 6 seconds, I would think this would be a clear improvement over Totem of the Astral Winds. I'd love to do some math on it so that we could do a realistic AEP comparison, but I can't come up with the formula yet.

As for the orc racial, the loss of that +5 skill meant a drop of 33 DPS according to Yo's sim, not counting the .2% crit I should have subtracted. The addition of 1% crit was worth 13 DPS, though it'll really be closer to 10 as it's only a .8% gain when you factor in the .2% lost from the weapon skill reduction. Overall, this means about a 23 DPS nerf. Couple that with what will be about another 25 DPS lost from the Ashtongue Talisman of Vision nerf, and I question whether 2.3 will even be a buff to my DPS. I had looked forward to this patch and the talent changes, now I can't help but feel let down.

Nite_Moogle · 10/12/07, 4:28 PM

Originally Posted by Krish

Stonebreaker's Totem has a 50% chance to proc, according to the spell effect linked at wowhead. Elemental Strength - Spells - World of Warcraft

It's almost certainly going to have an internal cooldown with that high of a proc rate, or you're talking about a more or less permanent 80-ish AP for shock spam.

rava · 10/12/07, 4:36 PM

Originally Posted by Hamilburg

http://elitistjerks.com/505038-post3526.html

80% shocks, 100% windfury uptime, 65% GoA/TA uptime.
Then it becomes a measure of 20% GoA uptime vs the shocks and benefit possible benefit from the new totem.

Certainly the new totem is aimed at shocking, it'd be silly to suggest otherwise.

Except..... that's not how you totem twist, at all.

Atren · 10/12/07, 4:38 PM

Take away from Ashtongue and give back with that totem slot? Kinda like with LB cast time and LO changes. Except this time they can refer to Ashtongue change as a fix (which it was) meaning far less serious outcry. Thats the pessimistic explanation i suppose.

Nemaa · 10/12/07, 4:44 PM

Malan, how about making the trinket section more easy to read and easy to substitue own AEP values? I had to recalculate the trinket's values based my own AEP values and it was a bit hard. This is what I'm thinking about:

VIII.11 Itemization - Trinkets
Trinket gains are converted using the AEP formulas above in the itemization stat weights from above, and listed as greatest AEP at the top.

[Dragonspine Trophy] 160.25 AEP = ( 40 + ( 325 * HasteRating * 10 * 1.5 / 60 ))
Assuming a 1.5 PPM
[Madness of the Betrayer] 142 AEP = ( 84 + ( 20 * HitRating ) + ( 2.4 * 10 / 60 * 300 * ArmorPenetration ))
Using 2.4 PPM (see here) the uptime is 40% giving a passive -120 Armor
[Tsunami Talisman] 141 AEP = (( 10 * HitRating ) + ( 38 * CritRating ) + ( 340 * 10 * 0.9 / 60 ))
Assuming a 0.9 PPM
[Ashtongue Talisman of Vision] 137.5 AEP = ( 275 * 10 * 0.5 / 10 )
Corrected in patch 2.3 to have the listed 50% proc rate, and observed at this rate on the PTR.
[Darkmoon Card: Crusade] 120 AEP
At a full stack, since this will take 10-15 sec to achieve, the AEP might be considered less valuable.
[Bloodlust Brooch] 118.3 AEP = ( 72 + ( 278 * 20 / 120 ))
[Hourglass of the Unraveller] 109 AEP = (( 32 * CritRating ) + ( 300 * 10 * 0.9 / 60 ))
Assuming a 0.9 PPM
[Abacus of Violent Odds] 96 AEP = ( 64 + ( 260 * HasteRating * 10 / 120 ))
[Drake Fang Talisman] 84 AEP = ( 56 + ( 20 * HitRating ))
[Kiss of the Spider] 79 AEP = (( 14 * CritRating ) + ( 10 * HitRating ) + ( 200 * HasteRating * 15 / 120 ))
[Romulo's Poison Vial] 49 AEP = ( 35 * HitRating )
And some unknown value from the nature damage proc, which is usually 1-2% of your damage. Unless you're totally starved for +Hit this probably isn't a trinket for shaman.
[Darkmoon Card: Wrath]
According to Thottbot comments the value of this card is low once your buffed crit rate is 30% or higher.

Madness of the Betrayer was miscalculated to 143.6, it's actually 142 using 0.25 as Armor Penetration and 1.4 as Hit Rating.

By the way my values for the trinkets are:
Dragonspine Trophy: 205.75
Madness of the Betrayer 163.6
Tsunami Talisman 151.18
Ashtongue Talisman of Vision 137.5

An other note:
"VIII.2 Itemization – Using Stat Weights[" has an unnecessary "["

Nemaa · 10/12/07, 4:47 PM

Romulo's Poison Vial has exact values for the nature damage proc (222-332). Wowhead comments say 1.4-1.6 PPM or 2-3.5% proc chance per hit. Using 1.5 PPM it gives 6.925 (( 222 + 332 ) / 2 * 1.5 / 60 ) more DPS.

Malan · 10/12/07, 4:51 PM

Ok I'll paste that in.

I just did some wowEquip itemizing in-game and came up with an "early raid shaman" item set for an enhance shaman who has done some heroics, has one or two badge items and heroic loots, but mostly in quest/instance gear.
Stats resulted in -
890 AP
14.5% Crit + 5% Talents
12.9% Hit (204 rating) + 9% talents (Amazing how early gear gives way way more hit rating)
MH - 2.7 speed, 71.7 DPS
OH - 2.6 speed, 71.7 DPS

This was wearing a *lot* of leather, only like 2 mail items.

Running it at 20,000 hours in the sim now.

berg · 10/12/07, 5:03 PM

Originally Posted by Atren

Take away from Ashtongue and give back with that totem slot? Kinda like with LB cast time and LO changes. Except this time they can refer to Ashtongue change as a fix (which it was) meaning far less serious outcry. Thats the pessimistic explanation i suppose.

You might want to look over those elemental changes. Be happy for our elemental friends they got one of the largest buffs in the history of wow with this patch

The ashtongue nerf is regrettable but expected. We still come out ahead in this patch.

Rob · 10/12/07, 5:17 PM

Umm, not to de-rail here, but as far as I can tell, elemental received a buff at the low end (low crit and low +damage) but a nerf at the high end (high crit and high +damage). If there are any elemental shamans raiding T6 content they aren't happy about these changes.

drats · 10/12/07, 5:18 PM

I consider any patch without a WF nerf a win.

By the way, I heard spirit weapons wasn't correctly reducing threat on yellow attacks. Is this still true or was it ninja fixed?

Edit@rob: The LO change is a huge buff to elemental raiding.

berg · 10/12/07, 5:21 PM

Like I said you may want to look into those changes. The new mechanic is different than it was presented as for them. In end game gear it equates to a decent dps gain (better than decent if you have a capacitor) and it more or less removed any mana/aggro concerns from the class, not even to mention the new arena buff hehe. They made out like bandits.

I'll stop posting about our elemental cousins now I promise.

Hamilburg · 10/12/07, 5:24 PM

Originally Posted by rava

Except..... that's not how you totem twist, at all.

Correction. It's not how *you* totem twist, but the author of the cited post uses it (and apparently to some success). Where you obtain (at best) 85% uptime on your non-WF totem, he instead has opted to go for a 65% uptime AND shock. Toe-may-toe, toe-mah-toe.

Neithan · 10/12/07, 5:35 PM

Guys dont forged that Shocks have quite a big resist rate vs Bosses (draenei racial helps but...).
Also been crawling the forums and found this nice Z'A offhand:
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/599...7164521jp7.jpg

Atren · 10/12/07, 5:44 PM

Chuckles, that pic was loading several seconds (upto 10) and all that time i was chanting 2.6, 2.6

Resist rate will be around 14% i believe if you have 3% spell hit from resto. Still it is viable option if it does not have internal cooldown.

Malan · 10/12/07, 5:46 PM

Yo's sim is misbehaving badly for me. Can someone plug in the numbers from above and tell me the AEP?

Do not use Kings, Might or LotP or flasks, assume Battle Shout, AP Food, and a Strength elixir.

Kasi · 10/12/07, 5:49 PM

Neither of you are right on dealing with shaman buffs for elemental. It's not a huge buff, but its not a nerf. At T6 level of gear the changes work out for about a 30 dmg buff on LB. Which works out to like a 15 dps buff. It's nice, but nothing groundbreaking. We get less threat and more regen too, but that matters more for AOE fights and really not too much for boss fights other than the Void Reaver gimmick fights. After looking at these changes, it looks pretty similar. Both types of dps shamans are getting slight buffs in dmg and bigger buffs in mana/threat issues.