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Old 10/13/07, 3:34 PM   #3776
Stigmata
Don Flamenco
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Al'Akir (EU)
5 sounds about the same as when last I entered, but as Ralene said, they are only just starting VR, so they would do alot less trash.

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Old 10/13/07, 4:36 PM   #3777
Illundai
Bald Bull
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Talnivarr (EU)
Last time we did TK we got 3 >.> (including 2 from Kael!).

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Old 10/13/07, 5:19 PM   #3778
everwatch
Piston Honda
 
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Night Elf Death Knight
 
Bronzebeard
Originally Posted by Malan View Post
Berg I can add a note in there about that if you think that's an issue.

Is Yo's sim behaving badly for anyone else? Maybe its just on my mac, but I've tried using it now on 2 different browsers and it never finishes the sim, the java applet just goes blank.
Are you windowing in and out of WoW, or another graphics intensive program? I have no idea why, but if you do that Yo's sim craps out and does exactly what you just said. It can go all blank, freeze up the entire window, or cause the field area to take on a screen shot of whatever was there on the screen before. When I run his sim I either go afk, read, or surf the net until it finishes. I can't go into WoW while it's running.


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Old 10/13/07, 6:34 PM   #3779
Tornhoof
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Die Silberne Hand (EU)
Yo's sim is not multithreaded, e.g. ui does not react while running the calculations.
If you're already running some highly cpu intensive program like wow (wow behaves badly with cpu usage) the sim might take ages to react etc.


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Old 10/13/07, 6:44 PM   #3780
Rob
Paid $25 To Raid
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Burning Blade
[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] / Weapon Expertise Adjustment discussion follows:

Before, the belt was granting 6 weapon skill, which translated into a bit over 3% white hit.
Now, it is granting 6 expertise, which translates into 1.5% dodge reduction and 1.5% parry reduction.

In a raid environment, the parry reduction will be largely useless as we will be attacking from behind. However, in the event that you are forced to attack from the front (RSTS ability causes boss to turn, tank repositioning, void-zone type AoE on floor, etc.) parry reduction should be quite nice. Increased damage output and you will lessen the possibility of anyone dying to a hasted swing timer resulting from a parry.

Dodge reduction will be useless against bosses that are constantly casting (e.g. Shade of Aran, High Astromancer Solarian) because mobs cannot dodge while casting, but fairly useful against mobs that do not cast or only cast instant spells. Mobs can dodge attacks from behind and weapon expertise is now a reasonable way to reduce these dodges. If weapon expertise is found to affect yellow damage as well as white damage, and if it adds to the chance to "Hit" rather than merely raising the hit cap, it should still be a good use of item budget for enhancement shamans. Additionally, items such as [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] with dagger rating now have merely expertise, so some gain can be had there.

As an example, let's assume that expertise works how we think it does (affects both white and yellow attacks; converts dodges and parries to hits). The Belt of One-Hundred Deaths used to give me 3% white hit rating (affecting ~50% of my damage); now it will give me 1.5% increased white damage and 1.5% increased WF and SS damage (affecting ~90% of my damage). It's probably an oversimplification, but it looks like a minor nerf: before I would get at most a 1.5% damage increase from the weapon skill on the belt, now I get at most a 1.35% damage increase from the expertise on the belt. (I am intentionally ignoring the effects of critical strikes in this analysis.)

I also happen to wear Shoulderpads of the Stranger, so I will have 8 expertise, resulting in a 2% dodge reduction. Theoretically, the net effect of this may be a buff (2% * 90% of damage = 1.8% damage increase, up from 1.5% in 2.2.)

We still don't know three things:
  1. Whether or not Expertise is working as intended (appropriately reducing dodge and parry chance). It is believed that the parry reduction supposedly granted by weapon skill was not working as intended, and if the expertise code was copied from the weapon skill code, it may not be functioning correctly.
  2. Whether or not Expertise is intended to affect yellow damage. So far, our assumption is that it is, but we do not have any evidence to prove this is correct.
  3. How Expertise's dodge and parry reduction affect the one-roll hit table and/or two-roll attack system. Possibilities include:
  • The most logical functionality would be that expertise reduces the number of dodges and parries while simultaneously increasing the number of hits.
  • However, it could be that rather than being converted to "Hit", "Dodge" and "Parry" are converted to "Miss". This would make Expertise far, far less valuable than Weapon Skill for enhancement shamans and essentially obsolete the stat.
  • Another possibility is that rather than being converted to "Hit", "Dodge" and "Parry" are removed from the table. If you don't follow me, I am saying that in this scenario, the percentage of "Hits" would increase as a number of total swings but the ratio of "Hits" to "Crits" would not change. For example, a character with 25% combined miss/dodge/parry and 75% combined hit/crit/glance that equipped items totaling 10 expertise would then have 20% miss/dodge/parry and 75% hit/crit/glance. Obviously these do not sum to 100% so the true numbers become 21% miss/dodge/parry and 79% hit/crit/glance. I realize this is a terribly tortured explanation without any tables to show what I mean, so if you don't get this, just ignore it for now.


TL;DR Summary:
  • It looks like the conversion of Weapon Skill to Expertise has slightly nerfed the Belt of One-Hundred Deaths, but overall it remains a decent use of item budget, and items that previously granted dagger skill may now be good choices for enhancement shamans.
  • Extensive testing will be needed to determine the true effects of expertise and reveal if this initial theory proves correct. We must determine if expertise affects yellow attacks and if it increases the number of hits or merely raises the hit cap. If it does not affect yellow attacks or if it merely raises the hit cap, expertise will not be a good use of item budget.
  • Weapon type considerations are no longer relevant for anyone except Orcs. It remains unknown if the 1% crit racial ability outweighs the inherent superiority of Syphon and Dragonstrike to Rising Tide and Wicked Edge, respectively.

Last edited by Rob : 10/13/07 at 6:55 PM.

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Old 10/13/07, 7:06 PM   #3781
Stigmata
Don Flamenco
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Al'Akir (EU)
It gripes me that Rogues and Warriors get "free" Weapon skill and I assume free expertise when the patch goes live. It makes it annoying to be required to have to use items such as belt of one hundred deaths or the gloves from alar or even the shoulders.

This reminds me of the mail gloves every dps warrior used to wear back in Naxx, because of the glancing thing even though they were not intended to be used in such a manor.

I realise all classes can't have the same talents, but it again is something that as a melee class we should have access to without having to get a specific item, especially since all the items are now in shit instances that most end game guilds dont even frequent. My guild could not go into TK/SSC now purely because no one wants to waste 3+ hours on getting 15 void crystals and hoping the odd random piece that it useful will drop.

Last edited by Stigmata : 10/13/07 at 7:20 PM.

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Old 10/13/07, 7:17 PM   #3782
Rob
Paid $25 To Raid
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Burning Blade
Rogues for sure are getting their +10 weapon skill converted directly to +10 expertise. I'm not sure on the Warrior situation as I think the talents were moved around. I believe that the expertise from talents is going to be in the Prot tree, which might mean that DPS warriors won't pick that talent.

Weapon Expertise would be a great replacement for the "Toughness" talent, or possibly the "Improved Weapon Totems" talent, which is not wholly useless but definitely underpowered compared to most talents that deep in the tree.

Overall, though, this seems like an itemization issue rather than a talents issue. Maybe they could replace our T6 MP5 with expertise!

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Old 10/13/07, 7:21 PM   #3783
Stigmata
Don Flamenco
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Al'Akir (EU)
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Overall, though, this seems like an itemization issue rather than a talents issue. Maybe they could replace our T6 MP5 with expertise!
Wishful thinking sadly

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Old 10/13/07, 8:13 PM   #3784
rava
sparks keep me warm
 
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Tauren Shaman
 
Turalyon
Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
This reminds me of the mail gloves every dps warrior used to wear back in Naxx, because of the glancing thing even though they were not intended to be used in such a manor.
Sup Edgemaster's Handguards.

I've been submitting feedback for t6 trying to explain why mp/5 is not good, I doubt it'll do anything but I would applaud anyone else who does the same.

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Old 10/13/07, 8:55 PM   #3785
Difforgazm
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Korgath
Again, not sure if this is a silly question, but it was stated that until 100 Deaths was tested with its new stats, that Boneweave Girdle - Items - World of Warcraft was the second best belt.

How would Don Alejandro's Money Belt - Items - World of Warcraft compare to this? with 2 sockets, it seems like the obvious choice with BT or JC only gems.

Again, sorry if this has already been asked, but i searched and couldnt find it.

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Old 10/13/07, 8:58 PM   #3786
Nemaa
Piston Honda
 
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Tauren Shaman
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I've been submitting feedback for t6 trying to explain why mp/5 is not good, I doubt it'll do anything but I would applaud anyone else who does the same.
Did the same on the eu forums here

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Old 10/13/07, 9:06 PM   #3787
Nemaa
Piston Honda
 
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Tauren Shaman
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
Difforgazm: please read "VIII.2 Itemization – Using Stat Weights" of the first post. There lies your answer about the two belts, after using a calculator.

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Old 10/13/07, 10:17 PM   #3788
Illundai
Bald Bull
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Talnivarr (EU)
I made some tickets about the stats on t6, whatever good it will do.

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Old 10/13/07, 10:26 PM   #3789
Rob
Paid $25 To Raid
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Burning Blade
Originally Posted by rava View Post
I've been submitting feedback for t6 trying to explain why mp/5 is not good, I doubt it'll do anything but I would applaud anyone else who does the same.
I did in the thread Eyonix was looking at, but based on what he was saying, I think it's a lost cause.

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Old 10/13/07, 11:37 PM   #3790
Malan
Mind the gap.
 
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Malan
Tauren Shaman
 
No WoW Account
Because this patch is making a lot of changes to the shaman talents, now would probably be an excellent time for every shaman that reads this thread to make feedback on the PTR.

As Rob suggested above, if several hundred of us (or more? who knows how many are reading this thread) gave feedback stating that Toughness or Anticipation should be changed to Weapon Expertise, maybe we'd have a shot of getting it.

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Old 10/14/07, 1:41 AM   #3791
Vim
Von Kaiser
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Illidan
With the new enchant in ZA, I wanted to compare it to Mongoose, but need someone to test my math. From what Wowhead shows, it has the same duration (15 sec) with no apparent ppm as well. Assuming 1 AGI = 2 AEP, Haste = 1.48, and Armor Pen. = .25 then Mongoose = 240 AEP from agility and 46.65 AEP from Haste (2% haste = 31.52 rating) = 286.65 AEP. Exectioner is 840 armor penetration = 210 AEP. Am I correct in this math? I understand that my personal AEP will change with my gear, and Armor Penetration may become more valuable as my gear changes.


On another note, AEP has helped me a lot while comparing armor, but I was wondering if there was a formulae used when comparing weapons. Since there is more to a weapon than the stats and gem slot, is there a way to assign a value to the difference in DPS? Assigning a value of 14 AP = 1 DPS doesnt seem correct to me as it is a huge AEP difference between weapons, and seems inflated in comparison to the AEP difference in pieces of armor. Id rather run it through a simulator, but my system is a bit dodgy atm, and Yo! isnt working because of that.

Last edited by Vim : 10/14/07 at 3:10 AM. Reason: spelling

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Old 10/14/07, 3:19 AM   #3792
Atren
Piston Honda
 
Orc Shaman
 
Shattered Halls (EU)
Speaking of badge gear, has any shaman checked if there is any shaman only gear for sale? As i think druid was the one who recorded first sightings and therefor there was a druid only piece for sale.

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Old 10/14/07, 4:14 AM   #3793
darkInertia
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Bonechewer
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] / Weapon Expertise Adjustment discussion follows:

Before, the belt was granting 6 weapon skill, which translated into a bit over 3% white hit.
Now, it is granting 6 expertise, which translates into 1.5% dodge reduction and 1.5% parry reduction.

In a raid environment, the parry reduction will be largely useless as we will be attacking from behind. However, in the event that you are forced to attack from the front (RSTS ability causes boss to turn, tank repositioning, void-zone type AoE on floor, etc.) parry reduction should be quite nice. Increased damage output and you will lessen the possibility of anyone dying to a hasted swing timer resulting from a parry.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but I believe that PVE mobs (bosses at the very least) can parry from behind; it is converted into a "miss" (or a "dodge", i forget) in the combat log, but mobs still get their parry chance even when attacked from behind.

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Old 10/14/07, 4:25 AM   #3794
Atren
Piston Honda
 
Orc Shaman
 
Shattered Halls (EU)
Do not think so, i see parry when i am parried which certainly seems to be a lot higher than 5%.

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Old 10/14/07, 4:38 AM   #3795
darkInertia
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Bonechewer
Originally Posted by Atren View Post
Do not think so, i see parry when i am parried which certainly seems to be a lot higher than 5%.
You see "parry" when you're attacking a mob from behind?

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Old 10/14/07, 4:56 AM   #3796
Kirion
Don Flamenco
 
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Tauren Shaman
 
Deathwing (EU)
Originally Posted by Vim View Post
With the new enchant in ZA, I wanted to compare it to Mongoose, but need someone to test my math. From what Wowhead shows, it has the same duration (15 sec) with no apparent ppm as well. Assuming 1 AGI = 2 AEP, Haste = 1.48, and Armor Pen. = .25 then Mongoose = 240 AEP from agility and 46.65 AEP from Haste (2% haste = 31.52 rating) = 286.65 AEP. Exectioner is 840 armor penetration = 210 AEP. Am I correct in this math? I understand that my personal AEP will change with my gear, and Armor Penetration may become more valuable as my gear changes.
That was already said in executioneer vs mongoose testing thread, Since warriors and shamans don't gain ap from agility, only haste part of mongoose proc give us fixed dps increase and crit part from agility may vary dependant on rng. Also i think that armor penetration is a bit undervalued in op. According to raid bosses armor thread -840 armor is over 5% more dps on fully debufed boss mob.

Originally Posted by darkInertia View Post
Correct me if i'm wrong, but I believe that PVE mobs (bosses at the very least) can parry from behind; it is converted into a "miss" (or a "dodge", i forget) in the combat log, but mobs still get their parry chance even when attacked from behind.

Mobs cant parry from behind. If it would so, tanks instagibs would occur too often.
Many boss mobs have around 10% parry, much higher than usual mobs.

42.

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Old 10/14/07, 4:59 AM   #3797
Kirion
Don Flamenco
 
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Tauren Shaman
 
Deathwing (EU)
double post, delete please

42.

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Old 10/14/07, 5:42 AM   #3798
Atren
Piston Honda
 
Orc Shaman
 
Shattered Halls (EU)
Originally Posted by darkInertia View Post
You see "parry" when you're attacking a mob from behind?
No, i see parry when i am parried.

EDIT: Noticed this thread has over 500k views :P

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Old 10/14/07, 6:07 AM   #3799
Bragor
Von Kaiser
 
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Draenei Shaman
 
Grim Batol (EU)
Theres a new trinket dropping in ZA that might be the 2nd best trinket in game atm.

[Berserker's Call]

Doing the Math : 90 AEP + (360*20/120) = 90 + 60 = 150 AEP

Making it the 2nd best trinket after the DST.

Something not right here.

http://armory.mmo-champion.com.nyud....63182wOceL.png

You never know, If you never try.

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Old 10/14/07, 6:21 AM   #3800
Stigmata
Don Flamenco
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Al'Akir (EU)
Originally Posted by Bragor View Post
Theres a new trinket dropping in ZA that might be the 2nd best trinket in game atm.

[Berserker's Call]

Doing the Math : 90 AEP + (360*20/120) = 90 + 60 = 150 AEP

Making it the 2nd best trinket after the DST.

Something not right here.
Blizzard have always been shit when it comes to trinkets. DST being a prime example in tbc and Rejuv Gem or Nelth Tear etc in vanilla wow.

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