Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 152

Yo! · 09/07/07, 1:04 PM

Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada

Dragonstrike MH (current dps), Rod of the Sun King OH (with 100 DPS new value).

EDIT: I think it counted as if I had T6 bonus on tho, obviously I don't. Neither Ashtongue, wich is always up. With Ashtongue up I average 34xx AP. But still, AP shouldn't modify much those values. Btw, could you post the sim somwhere else? All those popups make my Firefox NoScript cry

Tabs with procs and details are not working (no item proc was modelled) - they are for show of what I am going to do. If you think something is missing in design - please point to it.
If you have an idea of better add-free hosting somewhere - I will use it.

Important: If you do not put haste directly but put hasted weeapon speeds instead - the AEP value for haste will be higher than real one.

Yo! · 09/07/07, 1:15 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

[*]And the big one, I could use some links the original discussions where we illustrated how the WF cooldown makes fast OHs interfere with the procs, I'm lacking a more detailed explanation of it.[/list]

Originally Posted by Lujaar

The idea of offhand procs "stealing" mainhand procs came from the Blizzard forums, and I think all the threads about it have been pruned by now. I don't recall any serious evaluation on this forum..... Several times people have referred to the offhand "eating" or "stealing" mainhand procs but I've never seen any data supporting that and I'm not even sure what it's supposed to mean.

You may want to use first or fifth picture from this post http://elitistjerks.com/455208-post1615.html

Originally Posted by Nisall

The maths behind the 36% proc rate is that both hands have 20% chance to proc WF after the CD is over. This can also be written as an 80% chance to not proc WF. Since both actions (weapon swings) can separately start a single event (WF) you can say

0.8 * 0.8 = 0.64 chance for neither swings to proc a WF = 36% proc chance.

We are talking about 36% proc chance for each strike to proc WF, not for 2 strikes. It is believed that Blizz uses different proc chance (not 20% but 36%) when dual-wielding for each strike.

Toots Hepcat · 09/07/07, 1:34 PM

EDIT: Pff, this whole "eligible swings," proc chance per hit stuff is corroding my brain's already poor statistical ability. I've removed possible disinformation until such time that I can better organize it.

• Shalas · 09/07/07, 1:40 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Disquette - so it was not a mathematical conclusion, rather, an observed behavior.

The theoretical explaination is that when you have double Windfury enchants, both enchants have a chance to proc on each swing. This gives a (.8 * .8) 64% of no proc, or a 36% chance of proccing per swing. This also explains why quad procs happened with staggered ranks, as there would be a 4% chance of both windfuries proccing on the same swing.

One thing I've never seen mentioned or tested is if WF buffing both weapons applies even if the other weapon has an enchant other than windfury. It seems unlikely, but is theoretically possible.

(source: WoW Forums -> 2.1 Windfury Is Still Bugged! )

Malan · 09/07/07, 1:41 PM

I like the idea of using that image Yo, but it may be confusing to some people. When examining the graph, combos such as a 3.0/1.0 are in the same region as the 3.0/3.0 combo. Maybe its the scale of the graph - if you were to isolate the ranges of weapons that we're really interested in here (2.8 - 1.4) maybe it would show the effect more clearly?

Yo! · 09/07/07, 1:44 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

But a 36% proc chance per HAND would result in an in-game proc rate of around 59%.

Why?

TradewindKlaatubarada · 09/07/07, 1:47 PM

Been thinking, with the incoming 60% mana reduction to shocks and potential +1000 spelldamage raidbuffed, switching from Water Shield to Lightning Shield in raids will be mana viable, and I suspect very very damage viable also.

There has been any maths on it?

Toots Hepcat · 09/07/07, 1:54 PM

Yo -- my error here was confusion over the term "eligible white hits." I think I have just about purged it from my brain, but I do need to go over my WWS data to convince myself of that fact.

Leveret · 09/07/07, 1:55 PM

Is it realistic to expect over 1k spell damage from enhancement shaman, even with the new buffs to the talents?

Malan · 09/07/07, 2:00 PM

That would require 3,330 AP at the 30% conversion rate. I'm not sure how many people would be seeing that. 700 spell damage is a more reasonable expectation, requiring only 2330 AP.

Ilmatar · 09/07/07, 2:27 PM

Do we have some better reasoning for the crit dmg meta gem, other than the rudimentary reasoning I have in the OP right now? Theoretical dps value or something?

Judging by AEP, the stat bonus for the meta possibilities are about equal:
[Enigmatic Skyfire Diamond] - 24aep
[Potent Unstable Diamond] - 24aep
[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] - 24 aep w/ kings
[Swift Skyfire Diamond] - 24 aep

The [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] +3% crit damage bonus works for all crits, spell and melee. So, (pure theoretical) this should result in an increase in your DPS of + ( ( 0.03 * melee_crit% * dps_from_melee ) + ( 0.03 * spell_crit% * dps_from_spells ) )

The advantages of the other meta gems are either PvP related, or gains which can be had in other slots (run speed). This is the only equipment slot where we can add +3% crit damage.

Unaz · 09/07/07, 3:09 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

That would require 3,330 AP at the 30% conversion rate. I'm not sure how many people would be seeing that. 700 spell damage is a more reasonable expectation, requiring only 2330 AP.

I don't have that consistantly, but with trinkets and raid buffs, I hit 500+ SR ticks. Which is around that number. And we're just on vashj/solarian as far as progression.

Nisall · 09/07/07, 3:13 PM

Originally Posted by Yo!

We are talking about 36% proc chance for each strike to proc WF, not for 2 strikes. It is believed that Blizz uses different proc chance (not 20% but 36%) when dual-wielding for each strike.

The problem lies in the fact that both hands proc the same event. The statement that implies that when dual wielding your proc rate is 36% is saying that there is a 36% chance one of your weapons will proc a windfury.

Just to simplify things;
WF1 = windfury (rank 5) proc from your mainhand
WF2 = windfury (rank 4) proc from your offhand
WF3 = windfury proc from either (doesn't differentiate between MH and OH procs)

various scenarios
-Only equipping a MH you would have a 20% chance to proc WF1
-Only equipping an OH you would have 20% chance to proc WF2
-Dualwielding, pre-WF rank change, your MH has a 20% chance to proc WF1 and your OH has a 20% to proc WF2
-Dualwielding, post-WF rank change, you have a 36% (0.8*0.8) chance to proc WF3

EDIT: Blizzard hasn't changed the proc rate for single vs dualwielding. The confusion just happens when people use the same word to mean different things. Sometimes "WF proc" is used for a specific hand which procs and sometimes "WF proc" refers to any proc that happens.

Yo! · 09/07/07, 3:17 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

I like the idea of using that image Yo, but it may be confusing to some people. When examining the graph, combos such as a 3.0/1.0 are in the same region as the 3.0/3.0 combo. Maybe its the scale of the graph - if you were to isolate the ranges of weapons that we're really interested in here (2.8 - 1.4) maybe it would show the effect more clearly?

Hope this helps

Originally Posted by Nisall

The problem lies in the fact that both hands proc the same event. The statement that implies that when dual wielding your proc rate is 36% is saying that there is a 36% chance one of your weapons will proc a windfury.

Just to simplify things;
WF1 = windfury (rank 5) proc from your mainhand
WF2 = windfury (rank 4) proc from your offhand
WF3 = windfury proc from either (doesn't differentiate between MH and OH procs)

various scenarios
-Only equipping a MH you would have a 20% chance to proc WF1
-Only equipping an OH you would have 20% chance to proc WF2
-Dualwielding, pre-WF rank change, your MH has a 20% chance to proc WF1 and your OH has a 20% to proc WF2
-Dualwielding, post-WF rank change, you have a 36% (0.8*0.8) chance to proc WF3

EDIT: Blizzard hasn't changed the proc rate for single vs dualwielding. The confusion just happens when people use the same word to mean different things. Sometimes "WF proc" is used for a specific hand which procs and sometimes "WF proc" refers to any proc that happens.

EDIT: This explains it (each hit has 2 chances to proc WF when dual-wielding)... but why each hit has 2 chances to proc remains unknown (is it intended by Blizz or it is a bug).

Malan · 09/07/07, 3:47 PM

Yo - much better, now we can see the sharper curve on the left side of the graph, illustrating the rising % of OH procs.