Well, that trinket is 150 AEP always as it only gives AP which is base of AEP values. Other trinkets vary depending on the usefulness of the stats they have (Hit, Crit and etc). Values on first post are based on fixed values which will not be right for you. Get your personalised values and then use formulas in first post to see if it still is 2nd best trinket in the game atm for you.

Well i love the trinket. You can argue that it should not be better than the BT/Hyjal Trinkets. But I like active trinkets a lot and i am happy that there is a better than Bloodlust Brooch. I can use them when i activate SR/Bloodlust/Drums/Haste Potions or if i we need to get something down fast. It gives me another way to influence my performance and i think it is great to have a very good active trinket.

Argue? It is a fact that BT/Hyjal trinkets should be better than a lower level instance, there is no argument in my opinion. Poor itemisation yet again.

Actually you can argue that in order to keep interest in less than last instance it is nice incentive to have few pieces of eq in earlier one superior than in currently best one. Also is this out of order powerlist only for shamans or also for rogues/warriors? Unfortunaly rogues and dps warriors are primary target and any anomalies that only apply to us are of lesser importance imo. That last statement is of course my own personal view.

Probably stupid question but:
Currently using DST+Dragonstrike.
Macroed SR+Bloodlust trinket.
When using SR macro should I use Haste pots AND Drums of Battle or just SR+Drums and after one minute Haste pots to keep some kind of rotation.

Reading it after myself it seems like a total nonsense ;(

Actually, with my current gear, and using Yo's calculator, I calculated Madness of the Betrayer to be roughly 165 AEP worth. While the trinket is indeed good, it's entirely gear dependant if it indeed becomes the second best trinket or not.

has anyone looked at the proc rate for executioner yet?

Would it be worth getting over mongoose?
Would it be worth getting over crusader?

Obviously the more armor pen you have, the higher your aep is for armor pen, so the most useful information would be: what is the average armor pen given by executioner?

Rogue DPS spreadsheet has Mongoose/Executioner equal, Executioner being a little higher DPS and Mongoose having more defensive stats. 840 armor from Executioner, assumed same procrate as Mongoose so I don't see why you need an average, just compare the raw numbers. Another thing to keep in mind is haste values are multiplicative.

Malan, normally i would agree except in this case all that new trinket gives is AP. Since AP is always 1 as its basis of all other values, some sort of comparison can be made especially to show that it is not necessarily 2nd best trinket.

Tzenes, there is thread in here concerning that somewhere in this site.

My comment was regarding someone else saying that Madness of the Betrayer had a different value for them, not regarding the AP trinket.

As far as I have been able to determine, mobs cannot parry from behind*, but can dodge from behind. While I know WoWWiki is far from an authoritative source, I believe that most sims and spreadsheets are currently following the assumptions made in their Attack Table article, and these sims and spreadsheets currently seem to be 99% accurately reproducing game mechanics. If there is evidence to suggest that bosses have an elevated "dodge" or "miss" chance attacking from the rear as compared to the front, I would love to have it brought to my attention.


* The exception being when client and server disagree on the position of the player, which is believed to be the cause of the rare parried Backstab and the like.

that would be correct except that the attack power gained from stonebreaker's totem applies to all white hits, windfuries, and stormstrikes in that 10 second period. Passive 55 ap, vs 80 ap only on windfuries. I'd take the passive 55 ap as I'm sure I white hit + stormstrike + windfury a lot more than I windfury alone.


lets take 10 second interval, best case scenario with 1.5 weapon speed

during that 10 seconds best case scenario
you white hit 10/1.5 = 6 hits
you stormstrike at the start and at the end hitting with both weapons = 4 hits
you double proc windfury every time the 3 second cooldown is up = 6 hits


with stonebreaker you are gaining 55 ap for 16 hits
with astral winds you are gaining 80 ap for 6 hits

I think its pretty obvious which one I'd take.

Those 6 WF hits are multiplied by 140% if you are correctly specced, though (Elemental Weapons). That may not change the end result of your analysis, but it's important to take everything into consideration.

I also think it's logically wrong to include the SS twice. If you're looking at a 10 second cycle it should only include one Stormstrike.

Realistically, let's suppose everyone is using 2.6 speed weapons, with 100% flurry uptime for a swing speed of 2.0. Then you get 5 white swings in every 10 second period. The best-case scenario for this setup is also one WF proc every 4 seconds. So in a 40 second period there would be 10 WF procs (let's call them all MH, for the sake of argument), 4 SS, 20 MH white swings and 20 OH white swings. We'll say that you have a 15% miss rate on white swings, and that 20% of white swings glance doing 30% less damage, further reducing white damage by an additional 6%.

10*80*1.4*2 = 2240 max AP contribution from Astral Winds in 40 sec period.
10*55*1.4*2+4*55*1.5(SS)+20*55*0.79*1.5(MH+OH)=1540+330+1303.5=3173.5 max AP contribution from Stonebreaker in same 40 sec period.

Ignored: The effect of dodges, parries, blocks, and crits. These should apply consistently to both white and yellow damage.

If Stonebreaker uptime is lower than 50%, reduce the "55" in the second set of equations to 110*uptime.

Overall, I'm going to have to agree with your conclusion that Stonebreaker totem is superior if you shock enough to keep the buff up 50% of the time, but if you only shock enough to keep the buff up 35% of the time or less, Astral Winds is superior.

Yah I just haven't updated that yet.

edit: he'd already done that, I need to learn to re-read stuff.

I can tell you that tonight, Teron Gorefiend parried 4 of my windfuries. FUwindfury noted it.
Teron is a jerk, he turns around to select a target on whom to place shadow of doom.
When he does that, he parries the living daylights out of me, but at least he didn't instantly slaughter our tank.

So while you are fundamentally correct that bosses can not parry from behind, those jerks tend to spin in place while casting one-off spells.

Yeah, RSTS (random secondary target selection) abilities can indeed cause parries and sometimes with certain abilities, especially charges, the boss doesn't switch back immediately and the swing timer lines up so that you'll get hit and die, like Al'ar's charge used to. I assume that these abilities are easier to script than things like Nef's class calls, which is why they're used.

You can also parry a boss from behind with the server/client disagreement exception I described above.

Correct me if im wrong, but is this addon doing justice to FT in the offhand ?

my settings are 1600 AP, 15% hit, 28% crit, 2.6 speed MH with WF, and 1.4 speed OH with FT... It says 60ish dps with FT, but does that do it justice ? :s

it hits if I recall right now for about 80 damage or so, and with the increased dmg/heal in patch 2.3 we get that damage increased by a fair amount compared to what it already does... with these stats correct me if im wrong again... (say 1600 AP meaning 1600/3/10 = 53,33 damage/hit. meaning my FT should hit for around 130 damage/hit. Given that I use the gladiators dagger with 1.4 speed in the offhand I should reach nearly 1 hit/second with flurry. (and even faster with BL/trinkets, u name it...)

say we have mongoose on both wpns that will also boost weaponspeeds considerably! Roughly we should get say for instance 150 dps out of this FT, but if u check it out on the addon it says 60 dps with my settings :s

60 dps with 1.4 speed wpn... how is that possible with 130 damage hits and a wpn that on average strikes atleast once/second... som one explain, or tell me its wrong

ps. if I make the OH weaponspeed faster it decreases my DPS, which is ofc rediculous... something MUST be wrong :s

First, did you turn on the AP->Spellpower flag under Procs & Stuff? In the default setting, the sim is using 2.2 mechanics.

Second, Yo's acknowledged that the AP->Spellpower conversion code in the sim is currently somewhat buggy, but he's on vacation for a bit and doesn't plan to update the sim until Nov 1.

yeah I did add it

and as I just edited the post above, I made the OH weapon faster and the damage from FT decreased that cant be right ?

EDIT: sry it was an overall decrease in DPS not the FT, but its weird that I change the speed frmo 2.6 to 1.4 and the change in FT damage is like 10% :S

What was the average AEP value for RED meta gem using OP AEP values for stats? I remember it been mentioned in some post but couldn't find it anymore.

+12 agi = 24AEP, 3%crit damage ?

*edited* read OP again.. depending of group setup my crit% is between 35-45% in raids so propably average increase would be around 1.5% I guess. I suppose that would translate roughly being ~10dps? whatever that would be in AEP value... 1dps was abot 14AP so 140AEP? Feels like too high value.

Thanks for advance.

Remember theres side effects of having a fast OH, such as eating the flurry of ur MH, which in turn impacts ur wf procs. Maybe thats whats affecting ur results.