Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 164

Oteb · 10/19/07, 8:38 AM

Originally Posted by rava

No. Spell damage hasn't worked with items since ret paladins were tearing kids with Sulfuras and rogues were stacking spell damage with Thunderfury two years ago.

And shamans with full EF were getting 600 heals from crusader enchant.. good old times.

Freyalis · 10/19/07, 9:31 AM

Ah yes those were the days, ZHC + Ancient Hakkari Manslayer was a pretty brutal combo aswell heheh, both easily available from ZG

Neithan · 10/19/07, 9:50 AM

Originally Posted by Atren

Not really. See 28 agi gives more crit than 20 crit rating and 20 hit rating is more than 11 hit rating. Sockets number is same, and both are good socket types. Socket bonus is better for T6. That gives 37 str vs 58 AP in which T6 clearly wins. With BoK it is about 81 AP vs 58 AP. So 23 AP compared to about 3 crit rating (from head, can be way wrong :P) and 9 hit rating. THeir rather close to each other. T6 has more non-AEP stats however with 48 stamina, 19 intellect and 7 MP5/s compared to just 30 stamina.

Interesting. Thanks for your answer.

(Time to do some more calculations).

Altough:

Coefficients
Strength 2,2
Agility 2,05
Red Socket 17,6
Yellow Socket 17,24
Blue Socket 8,8
Hit Rating 1,84
Critical Strike Rating 2,11
Haste Rating 1,94
Attack Power 1
Ignore Armor 0,32
Expertise Rating 2,484

Malan · 10/19/07, 10:25 AM

To the guy asking about hit rating and WF procs - I suggest you read this article. Attack tables and you - WOW Insider

I've added the weapon DPS AEP values, along with an example comparison of Netherbane vs Merciless Gladiator weapons, and updated Panny's calculations on Stonebreaker.

Pitbuller · 10/19/07, 10:25 AM

I did have some extra time today and I double checked my math with Wdps aep.
I used Base line 2*2.6s*100dps weapons(easier to compare), 30%crit, 18% hit, 1500ap, 4400 armor, 2*mongoose, totem of astral winds, RED, BoM, MotW, soe, flask of resentless assault. No shocks nor 2.3. (Those are listed that yuo can check my test result if you want. I think if you use different values you should get same result anyway.)

result from YO's simulator.
scaling Mh wDPS and AP:

AP     MhWdps   Total DPS
652     200       980
1076    150       981
1500    100       979
1924     50       979
2348      0       978

scaling Oh wDPS and AP:

AP     Oh Wdps   Total DPS
1076    200       978
1288    150       979
1500    100       979
1712     50       979
1924      0       980

All result show that 1wDPS to MH8.48aep and Oh 4.24aep is less than 1% wrong when using same speed weapons.

EDIT: finally its readable.

Malan · 10/19/07, 10:34 AM

I'm not sure I understand your chart. You may want to use the [ code ] tags to allow spacing.

Mindrila · 10/19/07, 11:01 AM

I'm wondering why noone implemented the Wrath Card into simulations, it isn't that hard i think. (Well I have no sourcecode of a simulator available so I can't say how difficult it is)

The card is working like this:
If the hit is not a crit increase critrating by 17 for melee and spells.
If the hit is a crit return to normal critrating.

Stormstrike procs the card.
Windfury doesn't.
Shocks proc the card.

I really don't know how complex this is to integrate but I would like to see some thing of a chart like AEP over Basecritrating.
AEP would be calculated like this: (Critrate - Basiccritrate)*22.1* AEP Valuation for Crit

I would like to see someone modelling this card into a simulator (my shaman has this card and it's really hard to say if its worth it or not, so a simulation would be nice)

Jerem · 10/19/07, 11:22 AM

As far as the Darkmoon : Wrath card is concerned, it is modelled in Cheeky's hunter spreadsheet.

It might be totally different for a Shaman, but for a Hunter it becomes less and less efficient the more "passive" crit% you have. Call that "negative scaling" if you want.
Since Crit Rating is one of the most valued stat, I wouldn't invest in a Wrath card.

For a hunter, the Darkmoon : Crusade card is better than Wrath. Should be similar, or close to similar for a Shaman.

Malan · 10/19/07, 11:31 AM

Its the same way for Shaman. The less crit you have, the better the Wrath card is. The more crit you have, the value of the card approaches zero. According to people who have figured it out, at 30% or more crit (easily achieved in T5 gear with buffs) you are critting so often that you only see a couple stacks of the card at any time.

Ardonomus · 10/19/07, 12:26 PM

Searched for [Band of the Eternal Champion], all I found was a few-post discussion about it. I'm currently AEP valuing all the gear from Hyjal and BT but I have a hard time on this one due to the chance on hit effect.

Any update on that?

Malan · 10/19/07, 12:30 PM

Very few people are Exalted with Hyjal and so we have next to no data available. I think Stigmata said he's pretty close to it, that was a few weeks ago.

Shabadu · 10/19/07, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Very few people are Exalted with Hyjal and so we have next to no data available. I think Stigmata said he's pretty close to it, that was a few weeks ago.

I'll have it on Tuesday but I don't test things and just run by the seat of my pants. I've heard 60 sec internal cooldown with 1ppm and I'll have some anecdotal evidence after BT on wed.

Nemaa · 10/19/07, 12:49 PM

In my guild some healers already got their ring and they say it's duration is 15 sec, internal cooldown is 60 sec. This might be not intended but if our ring works the same way, the highest value for the proc is: 160 x 15 / 60 = 40 AEP

Torrential · 10/19/07, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Its the same way for Shaman. The less crit you have, the better the Wrath card is. The more crit you have, the value of the card approaches zero. According to people who have figured it out, at 30% or more crit (easily achieved in T5 gear with buffs) you are critting so often that you only see a couple stacks of the card at any time.

Just a thought but perhaps some value could be given to this card if you were to let your base crit fall in favor of Armor pen. 2.3 will make Armor pen pretty easy to obtain and that is a nice consistant dps boost where as crit is spikey, unpredictable and more of a threat issue. If you could get yourself in a place where the Wrath card allowed flurry/UR to be up 90-95%+ while at 25% crit you might be able to get some value there.

Of course to make all this work you're basing it off of that trinket, and in the end there's probably another trinket you could use with more standard crit rate and come out just s good or better.

panny · 10/19/07, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Jerem

As far as the Darkmoon : Wrath card is concerned, it is modelled in Cheeky's hunter spreadsheet.

It might be totally different for a Shaman, but for a Hunter it becomes less and less efficient the more "passive" crit% you have. Call that "negative scaling" if you want.
Since Crit Rating is one of the most valued stat, I wouldn't invest in a Wrath card.

For a hunter, the Darkmoon : Crusade card is better than Wrath. Should be similar, or close to similar for a Shaman.

On top of that, we have the additional advantage of having access to double Mongoose with a great AGI to crit ratio.

Malan · 10/19/07, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Torrential

in the end there's probably another trinket you could use with more standard crit rate and come out just s good or better.

I think you answered your own question and speaking personally here, I have no interest in pursuing the particular mechanics of the Dark Moon card.

Ardonomus · 10/19/07, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Nemaa

In my guild some healers already got their ring and they say it's duration is 15 sec, internal cooldown is 60 sec. This might be not intended but if our ring works the same way, the highest value for the proc is: 160 x 15 / 60 = 40 AEP

Thanks, thats somewhat what I heard aswell, that'll have to do until it's being tested properly when more people get exalted

Tristan · 10/19/07, 1:14 PM

Originally Posted by Nemaa

In my guild some healers already got their ring and they say it's duration is 15 sec, internal cooldown is 60 sec. This might be not intended but if our ring works the same way, the highest value for the proc is: 160 x 15 / 60 = 40 AEP

Has the ring been changed in 2.3? Tooltip in-game still says 10 sec duration atleast so that'd be:
160 * 10 / 60 = ~26.7 AEP

Rob · 10/19/07, 1:23 PM

Originally Posted by Neithan

Coeficients are based on your gear? Because honestly I did some comparisons like
Skyshatter Pauldrons - 190,98
and
Pauldrons of Primal Fury - 187,04

which I find a little bit skewed.

Obviously those AEP values have to be based on my gear. You can replace the coefficients with your own AEP values obtained by running Yo's sim.

Nevertheless, that's not a skewed comparison at all. Skyshatter is heavy on STA, INT, and MP5. Pauldrons of Primal Fury has no INT and no MP5, freeing up a ton of item budget to be used on useful stats.
You're comparing: 34 STR, 11 hit, 26 crit to 28 AGI, 20 hit, 58 AP. Those are almost identical in terms of DPS.

Tristan · 10/19/07, 1:45 PM

Originally Posted by Yasuhiko

On to my main topic: I have a question. Using enhancer, with "best possible gems," on the PTR, I get an AEP of ~250 for the Cyclone Helm, but live gives me an esimated AEP of 175. Is there a reason for this? Is it a change to RED?

Most likely you are not including either meta gems or gem estimates on Live. Meta gem slots or in reality RED in the meta slot will have 75 AEP added to it's value if gem estimates and meta gems are checked since Increase Critical Damage 3% isn't a pure stat that can't be multiplied with output from ItemBonusLib.

Noise · 10/19/07, 1:57 PM

Is anyone working on a definitive stat weight for weapon expertise?

I grabbed the shoulder pads of the stranger last night to see how it works out. Now to re-copy myself to test. I would be replacing the T5 shoulders so I struggle to think they would be better. On the other hand I have no Expertise rating on any other items, as with most stats, I'm sure the first couple of points will make the most difference.

There is nothing worse than seeing that MH WF proc come up:

DODGE
DODGE

Rob · 10/19/07, 2:00 PM

Weapon expertise is going to vary from fight to fight based on how often the boss mob casts (casting mobs can't dodge) and how easy it is to maintain perfect positioning behind the mob (mobs can't parry from behind).

That said, it looks fairly valuable. Multiply hit rating AEP by 1.8 if you assume that the mob will never cast and never parry.

Neithan · 10/19/07, 2:24 PM

Originally Posted by Rob

Obviously those AEP values have to be based on my gear. You can replace the coefficients with your own AEP values obtained by running Yo's sim.

Nevertheless, that's not a skewed comparison at all. Skyshatter is heavy on STA, INT, and MP5. Pauldrons of Primal Fury has no INT and no MP5, freeing up a ton of item budget to be used on useful stats.
You're comparing: 34 STR, 11 hit, 26 crit to 28 AGI, 20 hit, 58 AP. Those are almost identical in terms of DPS.

Yes realized that

. After doing some calculations it seems that Z'A/badge loot is close to T6.

Noise · 10/19/07, 2:38 PM

Originally Posted by Rob

Weapon expertise is going to vary from fight to fight based on how often the boss mob casts (casting mobs can't dodge) and how easy it is to maintain perfect positioning behind the mob (mobs can't parry from behind).

That said, it looks fairly valuable. Multiply hit rating AEP by 1.8 if you assume that the mob will never cast and never parry.

Thanks for the value.

After looking at it, this makes the Shoulderpads of the Stranger a no brainer over the T5 shoulder until you can get the 4 piece bonus.

Yet another piece of my set to get shelfed for a better leather item.

WTS MP5

Rob · 10/19/07, 2:43 PM

Shoulderpads of the Stranger were already a no-brainer over T5 (which are worse than T4 due to the MP5)