Shoulderpads of the Stranger were already a no-brainer over T5 (which are worse than T4 due to the MP5)
I find it nauseating how many shamans mid TK/ssc that use T5 shoulders, heck, I only recently upgraded from T4 to T6, and I've killed illidan a bunch. Getting items like bloodsea brigand's and especially a DST or Tsunami are much higher in priority. In hyjal/BT the leather/mail dps gear flows like a river.
Very few people are Exalted with Hyjal and so we have next to no data available. I think Stigmata said he's pretty close to it, that was a few weeks ago.
Sebudai has it. Ask him
Also, just an idle thought that will likely get over-looked but it has been bothering me. The RED is universally agreed upon as the best meta-gem, but I just want to toss ideas out that I have been pondering.
I believe that the 24 ap and runspeed gem should have its AEP value increased by ~20, maybe more (still under RED, to clarify). My reasoning is that it requires no blue gems, and it has run speed on it, allowing you to get 6 more agility from your boots.
I realize this is nothing ground-breaking, just something I was musing over while I was mad that I put a 10 str in my bow-stitched legs instead of another sovereign nightseye.
Also, just an idle thought that will likely get over-looked but it has been bothering me. The RED is universally agreed upon as the best meta-gem, but I just want to toss ideas out that I have been pondering.
I believe that the 24 ap and runspeed gem should have its AEP value increased by ~20, maybe more (still under RED, to clarify). My reasoning is that it requires no blue gems, and it has run speed on it, allowing you to get 6 more agility from your boots.
I realize this is nothing ground-breaking, just something I was musing over while I was mad that I put a 10 str in my bow-stitched legs instead of another sovereign nightseye.
An extra blue, but, some items like bloodsea brigand's and midnight chest (best chest currently) have an easy to get blue socket with a nice, nice ap bonus. Also, the gem from heroic SV fits into a blue socket giving 5 str 4 agi.
An extra blue, but, some items like bloodsea brigand's and midnight chest (best chest currently) have an easy to get blue socket with a nice, nice ap bonus. Also, the gem from heroic SV fits into a blue socket giving 5 str 4 agi.
True. Like I stated, it's not any massive find, I just was thinking about it. Personally (by personally, I mean 'I have no t6, ergo little stam'), the stam is much needed and I like being more rounded, rather than a glass-cannon.
Searched for [Band of the Eternal Champion], all I found was a few-post discussion about it. I'm currently AEP valuing all the gear from Hyjal and BT but I have a hard time on this one due to the chance on hit effect.
Any update on that?
So far for me its had a ~12-13% uptime in raids, that would put the proc at ~20AEP. Its a perfectly ok ring, but its not spectacular. Cooldown does seem to be 60 sec as previously said.
I'd give it a solid "Meh...". It was an upgrade, but not a huge one. That's not really surprising from the ring slot though. It has about a 10% chance to proc with a 60 second internal cooldown. I think the ring hierarchy probably looks like this(at least for me):
Stormrage Signet Ring - 156.78 AEP
Band of the Eternal Champion - 137~ AEP
Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring - 136.2 AEP
Ring of Deceitful Intent - 133.05 AEP
Band of Devastation - 123.35 AEP
Yop.
My gear has changed since then so those AEP values won't be entirely accurate(at least for me). But they should be pretty close.
Only one blue gem in that; Relentless won't activate. More or less what I was looking at so far , just have to throw another purple in one of the red sockets (unfortunately).
I looked through as much of the thread as I could muster to try to find data to support the guidelines for using GoA vs Windfury Totem. The one link I did find was broken. I wonder if anyone here has a bookmark for some analysis on this subject.
I've got an enh shammy doing wonders for our melee group, but I noticed in last WWS that he was dropping GoA. The group config was Fury Warior, two Mutilate Rogues, a Combat Dagger rogue, and the Shammy. I'd like to have some decent data to support the use of Windfury Totem instead of GoA.
Incidentally, the WWS was for Hydross, so in my mind WF should definitely have been down since the rogues wouldn't have been using poisons at all.
A common misconception is that 'you can't get a WF proc if you miss' (similar to the notion that you can't crit unless you hit first).
Wait -- whose misconception? Windfury has a 36% chance to proc off an eligible hit. Eligibility is defined as "being outside the cooldown." Hit, I assume, is defined as "A swing that does not result in a dodge, parry, block or miss."
Obviously HitR/ER gear won't change the WF proc chance, and won't change eligibility. But they will increase the number of hits, some of which will be eligible, giving us more tries to proc Windfury over time. The proc rate will never exceed 36% of eligible hits, but it could approach 36% of eligible swings with enough HitR and ER.
I used Yo's sim to run a few 10000 hour tests using the default values and changing ONLY the values for Hit Rating. I saw an increase in WF damage of about 2 DPS per 1% Hit as I stepped up from 10 to 20. This predicts that there is a connection between Hit Rating and Windfury proc rate. It's just very small, and already included in the AEP calculations out of the sim.
Of course I am using the universal AEP values at the start of the page.
And yes having that full mail set will mean we are seriously gimped in the HP side of things.
Originally Posted by Tsaeb
Only one blue gem in that; Relentless won't activate. More or less what I was looking at so far , just have to throw another purple in one of the red sockets (unfortunately).
I've got an enh shammy doing wonders for our melee group, but I noticed in last WWS that he was dropping GoA. The group config was Fury Warior, two Mutilate Rogues, a Combat Dagger rogue, and the Shammy. I'd like to have some decent data to support the use of Windfury Totem instead of GoA.
Figure out how much damage their main hand white damage was responsible for and multiply it by 20%.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
Hudini, you won't find much about that debate because it's long since settled.
But puzzle it out for yourself. Assume every member of your melee group is doing the same amount of damage -- 1000 DPS. Also assume they all get the same benefit as a shaman from a talented GoA -- 3.52% crit. And assume that value applies to all damage, as if the others in the party had 0% crit to start with.
Your group would go from doing 5000 DPS to doing 5175.
Now let's assume that you drop WF. Ignoring the AP boost, this will give 20% additional auto-attack "white damage" to everybody's MH but yours. The percentage of total DPS from main hand white damage can alter dramatically from player to player, but let's assume it's only 25%. Each of the members of your party are now doing 300 MH white damage and 750 OH/yellow damage, for a total of 1050 each.
Add this to your flat 1000, and you get 5200.
Then consider that all those assumptions are unrealistically low, and you'll realize that WF totem rocks and you should stop being so damn greedy. The only exceptions are a) not being in a melee group or b) having a bear main tank.
Just a quick question:
Is Yo's Sim working at the Moment?
I tried it a couple of times and without changing anything, I always get huge different numbers for AEP. (every stat ranging between 0,5 and 2,5).
I use 10000 hours, do I have to use more hours?
Hudini, you won't find much about that debate because it's long since settled.
But puzzle it out for yourself. Assume every member of your melee group is doing the same amount of damage -- 1000 DPS. Also assume they all get the same benefit as a shaman from a talented GoA -- 3.52% crit. And assume that value applies to all damage, as if the others in the party had 0% crit to start with.
Your group would go from doing 5000 DPS to doing 5175.
Now let's assume that you drop WF. Ignoring the AP boost, this will give 20% additional auto-attack "white damage" to everybody's MH but yours. The percentage of total DPS from main hand white damage can alter dramatically from player to player, but let's assume it's only 25%. Each of the members of your party are now doing 300 MH white damage and 750 OH/yellow damage, for a total of 1050 each.
Then consider that all those assumptions are unrealistically low, and you'll realize that WF totem rocks and you should stop being so damn greedy. The only exceptions are a) not being in a melee group or b) having a bear main tank.
Oh, it's not me, mind you, it's one of the shammies in the raids I'm leading.
This is clear enough, but the posts I've read and the original post seem to imply that the big turning-point in group configuration is the addition of the warrior. Some claim that WF totem adds 200-300 DPS to a fury warrior.
I mean, I understand what the shaman is thinking "Well, I've got two mutilate rogues who depend on poisons being up, a combat dagger rogue with a pretty fast main-hand weapon, and a Fury warrior... well, GoA affects all of us, whereas WF is only going to affect two of us, so... GoA it is."
It only complicates matters that the rogues are going to have to remove their main-hand poison to see anything from the WF totem, so I've got to convince them too.
Sorry, I don't mean to go over covered ground and I do appreciate the starting point you've provided. I was just hoping there would be a good reference for the impact of WF totem on a fury warrior. Most of the other guidelines in the top-most post have some decent number crunching behind them.
"Well, I've got two mutilate rogues who depend on poisons being up, a combat dagger rogue with a pretty fast main-hand weapon, and a Fury warrior... well, GoA affects all of us, whereas WF is only going to affect two of us, so... GoA it is."
The fast mainhand doesn't affect anything. There's no internal cooldown on windfury totem. Faster weapons have more procs but each proc is less damage. It averages out to the same damage.
In the case of Hydross, their poisons are negated in every Nature phase anyway. For me, it's either GoA or twist GoA/WF (rarely just WF), depending on the fight and group makeup. If there's more than two Rogues/Warriors (in any combination), and no Feral (we have 2 Ferals, both tank nearly always), I almost always twist. On Hydross specifically, I tend to drop just GoA, but that's more of a threat issue. I'm not sure how to address the issue of Mutilate; all of the Rogues in my guild are and always have been Combat.
Both item values already include gems, the moccasins really aren't very good. From a DPS perspective they only score slightly higher than the Solarian and Vashj boots. [Shadowmaster's Boots] really are the clear best choice unless for some reason you value int over stam, in which case you'd want [Softstep Boots of Tracking].
Both item values already include gems, the moccasins really aren't very good. From a DPS perspective they only score slightly higher than the Solarian and Vashj boots. [Shadowmaster's Boots] really are the clear best choice unless for some reason you value int over stam, in which case you'd want [Softstep Boots of Tracking].
Of course, at the point you reach this gear level the +hit on the moccasins becomes more attractive than the extra crit/ap on the shadowmaster boots. Atleast for me it was, and Yo's sim seemed to agree.
Of course, at the point you reach this gear level the +hit on the moccasins becomes more attractive than the extra crit/ap on the shadowmaster boots. Atleast for me it was, and Yo's sim seemed to agree.
You'd have to have some pretty crazy AEP values for hit for this to be true. With crit/agi at 2.0 you'd need hit to score 3.8 before the moccasins become the superior choice.
10/19/07, 3:13 PM
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