I been thinking about T6 and expertise. Since hunters do not benefit from expertise we probably will not see any random mail with it. However, T6 is class specific so it would not be 'wasted' there. It would be perfect replacement to MP5/s imo. I dont know how much would we get for the MP5/s we have altough, does anyone know the cost in item budget for expertise?
I have seen several comments here that refer to how much of a waste it is to pick up the T5 shoulders. I have to disagree. The stats on this item by itself, and gemmed, are about 210.6 for me. It helps me meet RED gem requirements, and until I get at least 4 BT/Hyjal pieces or 4/5 T6, the 4-piece set bonus on T5 is worth about 110AEP for me.
I have been using Bow-stitched Leggings and T5 in the other slots. Even though I have Mail of Fevered Pursuit and Shoulders of the Hidden Predator, swapping them out would still result in a net DPS loss due to losing 4/5 T5. Until I can grab Grips of Damnation and Midnight Chestguard or Cursed Vision of Sargeras, I'll be hanging on to that 4-piece bonus.
I know Hand of Justice is a lower level trinket, but chance on hit an additional attack is pretty damn sweet, it also gives 20 AP.
My shaman when enhance (like at the time of this post) really gets alot of proc's, I would say at least 1-2 every farm mob, I dont raid with him much as enhance, so couldn't tell you its quality there.
And an addional attack can yeild me 300-2500 damage, especially if WF proc's off it.
While some items are merely 'on use gain 280 ap' and such.
If you have access to [Syphon of the Nathrezim], dual wield it. (Put your first one in your OH if you have an MH-only weapon like Dragonstrike, otherwise it doesn't matter which hand you choose.)
Does this mean if I do have a Dragonstrike, replace it with a second Syphon when I get it? I read a few pages back someone was saying Dragonstrike was worth more dps.
Does this mean if I do have a Dragonstrike, replace it with a second Syphon when I get it? I read a few pages back someone was saying Dragonstrike was worth more dps.
Originally Posted by Rob
I'm not really sure that we have a convincing/definitive answer for you on that. Run the sims.
The sim isn't 100% acurate, and testing ingame is not practical because you can never have every single factor identical all instances.
What is important, is that whether you DW Syphon, use RT MH or use Dragonstike, the net dps will be within ~1% or each other.
If you have access to any of these weapons then you will be more than happy.
My personal slant on this is that RT/Syphon is the best combo (I have all 3 of the above items)
Trying to figure out an AEP that I can use for comparing T5, T6 and the new badge/ZA gear. It's hard for me to do this since my current gear and spec is elemental so I have no personal stats I can really input in Yo's sim.
Since I am able to pick and choose offspec items right now, I am definitely curious in getting an optimal AEP values I can use to compare possible T6 upgrades vs badge/ZA rewards. For now I am going with Sebudei's. I just wanted to know if those numbers match up with others in T6 gear.
Does this mean if I do have a Dragonstrike, replace it with a second Syphon when I get it? I read a few pages back someone was saying Dragonstrike was worth more dps.
See, the thing is the difference in dps is really really marginal. I'd say it comes down to preference, I wouldn't mind mainhanding a Syphon or Rising Tide, but we've gotten one Syphon and zero Rising Tide in about 2 months or so. I took the last Syphon and unfortunatly now people want a Syphon for pvp purposes, so I'm not sure I want to bid that much DKP on such a small upgrade.
That and Dragonstrike looks cool! I might pick up a Rising Tide, though - just to see the difference...
And of course it depends greatly on your own AEP values, if you value Haste pretty high, Dragonstrike will get better.
Trying to figure out an AEP that I can use for comparing T5, T6 and the new badge/ZA gear. It's hard for me to do this since my current gear and spec is elemental so I have no personal stats I can really input in Yo's sim.
Since I am able to pick and choose offspec items right now, I am definitely curious in getting an optimal AEP values I can use to compare possible T6 upgrades vs badge/ZA rewards. For now I am going with Sebudei's. I just wanted to know if those numbers match up with others in T6 gear.
The numbers are all going to be very close, look at the difference between t5 and nearly optimal gear- .5 added to hit and .04 added to armor penetration. My results put armor penetration and crit a little higher, but if you're just starting out the t5 numbers should be an easy guideline to follow.
Haste is there, its just detailed out a little bit lower in a subsection. I'll be changing that around before long anyways as it has some bad assumptions in it (that whole 1.4 - 1.5 valley thing) that need to be removed. Haste was valued at 1.48 for the default set.
Yeah thing is I'm not starting out from early T5. I am in a T6 guild working through early BT and almost have Azgalor dead and I raid as elemental. However right now Elemental is looking like its going to be nerfed to hell. We also have no enhancement shaman, only occasionally an arms warrior and not a ton of rogues/hunters. I'm picking up this stuff in case the nerf goes through. So I am able to pick up gear that would otherwise be sharded.
So far I've managed to pick up a Mantle of Darkness, a Valestalker Girdle and a Pendant of the Perilous. I could have also picked up a Moccasins if I had wanted, but I figured the new rogue socketed badge boots are better. From what I can tell the mantle and girdle are basically best in game right now.
Looking at badge gear, I like the cloaks better than anything I can get pre BT (since I won't be getting the BT ones or likely the Kael one).
Shallow Grave Trousers from Badges look nearly as good as Bow Stitched (which I doubt I'd get), the Tabi boots seem to be better than Quickstrider's (maybe not as good as the Mother boots but I'm not getting those), Master Assasin's Wraps from badges also looks to be very competitive with BT drops. I'm not sure on helm though. Obviously I'm not getting the one from Illidan. Maybe the one from Illidari Council if both hunters have T6 helms from Archimonde by then.
So it looks like:
Head: Either one from ZA.
Neck: Pendant of Perilous
Shoulders: Mantle of Darkness
Back: One of the new badge/ZA ones
Chest: Shadowtooth Trollskin or Nether Shadow Tunic. Fevered Pursuit and Bloodsea Brigand's vest are both options too.
Bracers: Master Assasins Wristwraps
Gloves: Fists of Makua
Belt: Valestalkers Girdle
Legs: Shallow Grave Trousers
Boots: Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots
Rings: ZA event ring (the caster one wouldn't be better than either the BT trash one or MH rep ring anyway) + one other
Trinkets: Ashtongue one plus one other. Trinkets don't drop a lot, so it would likely be either Bloodlust Brooch, the one from ZA or something like Hourglass.
Weapons: I like the offhand from ZA since it has good stats. Would be happy mainhanding one of the two BT ones and offhanded Fury. Obviously mainhanding Rising Tide and offhanding Syphon would be my preference, but Fury and Netherbane both seem passable offhand options.
Totem: Heroic Mana Tombs I guess.
Edit: Would I be right in that the boots and bracers, and to a lesser extent leggings are the best of the new badge loot?
I found the bug which caused my model to output more WF dps than it should, I accidentially doubled the the full ap for offhand, instead of only doubling the wf ap bonus.
My model is now fairly consistent with Yo's simulator, back again in the <5% range.
Well first off I'd encourage you to look at Blink's data in the elemental threads because my understanding is that these 2.3 changes are not a nerf after all. (But lets not discuss that here) Secondly, if you have no Enhance gear to start with but will be picking up T5/T6 equivalent, than use the baseline AEP to start.
Believe me, I've kept up on those. As Bink just said today.
"For crying out loud that's annoying.
I bet they're going to stick with the "It's a buff" argument due to the stopcast change."
It's a dps nerf bigtime. Around 6% minimum, shamans on the test realm are reporting fairly signifigant dps losses, although part of that is due to this new stopcasting "fix".
As for the AEP, I'll use Sebudei's, mainly since we're phasing out T5 and any gear I'll be getting will be either T6 or gear equivalent to T6 from ZA or badges.
I did some preliminary work on Executioner using Yo's Simulator with a constant 240 armor pen. As a result my dps values should actually be lower for Executioner than the real values:
On bosses with 7700 armor:
with 500 armor pen (full ZA and BoJ gear) and duel Executioner, my dps sits at: 984
with duel mongoose my dps sits at 998
assuming full sunders
On bosses with 6200 armor:
with duel Executioner 1097
with duel mongoose my dps sits at 1109
for reference (because someone might ask):
Mon/Ex: 1103
Given that 6200 and 7700 are the most common boss armor values (with 6200 being more common on harder fights, Vashj, Kael, Illidan), this clearly shows that Mongoose is better than Executioner until you hit black temple.
So where is the break even point? Not surprisingly at 620 armor pen, Executioner out preforms Mongoose (on 6200 armor bosses, on 7700 its 720 armor pen).
The armor pen gear I used to hit the 500 mark is:
Coif of the Jungle Stalker
Shifting Camouflage Pants
War-Feathered Loop
Steadying Bracers
Vestments of Hibernation
Until you hit the 620 mark, you should consider 4 points of armor pen to = 1 point of attack power
at the 620 mark, this number jumps to 3:1 with the addition of executioner.
The 620 mark becomes viable with the addition of Choker of Serrated Blades a trash drop out of black temple.
You can get close with the addition of season 3 gear or this boj pvp cloak: Dory's Embrace
Please remember this is preliminary work. It is not accurate. I'll have to start doing testing on the PTR (as soon as bliz will let me on) to find out real values
I did some preliminary work on Executioner using Yo's Simulator with a constant 240 armor pen. As a result my dps values should actually be lower for Executioner than the real values:
On bosses with 7700 armor:
with 500 armor pen (full ZA and BoJ gear) and duel Executioner, my dps sits at: 984
with duel mongoose my dps sits at 998
assuming full sunders
On bosses with 6200 armor:
with duel Executioner 1097
with duel mongoose my dps sits at 1109
for reference (because someone might ask):
Mon/Ex: 1103
Given that 6200 and 7700 are the most common boss armor values (with 6200 being more common on harder fights, Vashj, Kael, Illidan), this clearly shows that Mongoose is better than Executioner until you hit black temple.
So where is the break even point? Not surprisingly at 620 armor pen, Executioner out preforms Mongoose (on 6200 armor bosses, on 7700 its 720 armor pen).
The armor pen gear I used to hit the 500 mark is:
Coif of the Jungle Stalker
Shifting Camouflage Pants
War-Feathered Loop
Steadying Bracers
Vestments of Hibernation
Until you hit the 620 mark, you should consider 4 points of armor pen to = 1 point of attack power
at the 620 mark, this number jumps to 3:1 with the addition of executioner.
The 620 mark becomes viable with the addition of Choker of Serrated Blades a trash drop out of black temple.
You can get close with the addition of season 3 gear or this boj pvp cloak: Dory's Embrace
Please remember this is preliminary work. It is not accurate. I'll have to start doing testing on the PTR (as soon as bliz will let me on) to find out real values
One problem, executioner doesn't stack.
Was too quick to respond, are you including faerie fire and curse of recklessness? You just said "Assuming full sunders".
Was too quick to respond, are you including faerie fire and curse of recklessness? You just said "Assuming full sunders".
This is only assuming sunders.
Executioner does not stack, however, the proc rate does. Of course this is not a linear increase. I assumed the first Executioner was an average 240 armor pen, and the second was 240*.75
Edit: this is also a lowball estimate, as the second can refresh the first, so it should come out to above the 180 I used for calculations
The sim isn't 100% acurate, and testing ingame is not practical because you can never have every single factor identical all instances.
What is important, is that whether you DW Syphon, use RT MH or use Dragonstike, the net dps will be within ~1% or each other.
If you have access to any of these weapons then you will be more than happy.
My personal slant on this is that RT/Syphon is the best combo (I have all 3 of the above items)
Is that because Syphon being slightly slower in the OH gives you more WF procs? (on the main hand, I mean)
Personally, using Dragonstrike/Merciless OH, I find I get a lot more offhand procs than mainhand... which can't be good at all. I guess i'll grab a rising tide and main hand it with a syphon then.
Yes a slightly faster MH gives your MH a slight advantage in wf procs.
And Stigmata is correct the difference between DW Syphon, RT/Syphon and Syphon/Cleaver is in the 1% range, usually the RT/Syphon combo is the best due to the above mentioned advantage.
I did some preliminary work on Executioner using Yo's Simulator with a constant 240 armor pen. As a result my dps values should actually be lower for Executioner than the real values:
On bosses with 7700 armor:
with 500 armor pen (full ZA and BoJ gear) and duel Executioner, my dps sits at: 984
with duel mongoose my dps sits at 998
assuming full sunders
On bosses with 6200 armor:
with duel Executioner 1097
with duel mongoose my dps sits at 1109
for reference (because someone might ask):
Mon/Ex: 1103
Given that 6200 and 7700 are the most common boss armor values (with 6200 being more common on harder fights, Vashj, Kael, Illidan), this clearly shows that Mongoose is better than Executioner until you hit black temple.
So where is the break even point? Not surprisingly at 620 armor pen, Executioner out preforms Mongoose (on 6200 armor bosses, on 7700 its 720 armor pen).
The armor pen gear I used to hit the 500 mark is:
Coif of the Jungle Stalker
Shifting Camouflage Pants
War-Feathered Loop
Steadying Bracers
Vestments of Hibernation
Until you hit the 620 mark, you should consider 4 points of armor pen to = 1 point of attack power
at the 620 mark, this number jumps to 3:1 with the addition of executioner.
The 620 mark becomes viable with the addition of Choker of Serrated Blades a trash drop out of black temple.
You can get close with the addition of season 3 gear or this boj pvp cloak: Dory's Embrace
Please remember this is preliminary work. It is not accurate. I'll have to start doing testing on the PTR (as soon as bliz will let me on) to find out real values
10/20/07, 5:11 AM
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