Those 6.x% are combined dodge/parry, individually they should be 5% against a lvl 70 mob. Which fits if we take the 10% combined and substract 90*0.04 for weapon skill difference.
Against a level 73 mob dodge and parry is most likely more than 5.6% each, 5% + 15*0.04 for weapon skill difference.
I can not explain the reduced Stormstrike parry/dodge though.
For the white/yellow values Disquette's test values are well in the range I expected them to be with weapon expertise.
despite the test realm's queueing system dicking over classes with cast time abilities (ret pally, warriors), I got some decent numbers for a COMBAT DAGGER rogue for WF / GoA / No Totem.
While the testing time interval wasn't nearly enough for a comprehensive test, I think the information is valuable.
Rogue - no Totem:
Melee dps (white dmg): 494
breakdown:
0.33 Hit
0.25 Glance
0.34 Crit
0.05 Miss
Poison DPS (Deadly + Insta): 87
So, what we see is that in this test, melee dps has increased by 14 despite having:
6% lower crit rate (we'd expect about 2% less due to GoA)
3% more glances (we'd expect 0% difference)
If the melee crit rate on the WF test was the same as on the GoA test, minus 2% for the GoA totem, we would have had an extra 4% attacks at the crit damage level. In this testing, that equals an extra 41 dps.
If this test had been long enough to cover the vagaries of testing, invoking laws of large numbers, the final breakdown would have been:
No Totem:
Melee: 494
Poisons: 87
Total: 581
GoA Totem:
Melee: 547
Poisons: 91
Total: 638
WF Totem:
Melee: 602
Poisons: 66
Total: 668
The only variable unaccounted for, as I see it, is the effect of an extra 2% crit on backstab, and the 88AP on backstabs.
Would that make up 30 dps and a 3% glance deficit? I highly doubt it. Maybe a rogue can answer better. My calculations make it look like a 10dps increase from the 2% crit + 88 ap (for the backstab component only!). So, it's still 20dps short + the glancing deficit.
I think the testing does support what is widely thought to be the case - WF is better than GoA, even for combat dagger rogues. Not by that much, but better. With a sword/mace/fist rogue, much much better.
I'm sorry I don't have more testing, but people were getting really frustrated on the test server due to the spell queueing lag - I had a dps war and ret pally in the group, and REALLY wanted to get their numbers too, but they said that the 1 to 6 second extra delay on swings was way too much to make their results meaningful. I thought it was cool that the ret pally was doing 1K+ dps on a boss with windfury even without great gear.
A huge thanks to all that plodded through the wipes - doing the last trash pack before the boss is kinda hard with all melee dps + one lock and one healer constantly d/c'ing until we decided to keep one of the axe throwers perma-feared.
People have very strange theories concerning stats and gear for our class. I don't focus on any stat in particular. I determine the value of each stat for myself, using a simulator like Yo's, and then I equip the items that result in the highest total. I don't focus on attack power, or hit rating, or haste, or whatever. I just equip the best items.
It is not as though we have a vast array of items to choose from, each focusing on a specific stat. I'm not choosing between a +hit breastplate, a +crit breastplate, a +attack power breastplate or a +haste rating breastplate. We get like 2-3 options for each slot, and they all have some of most or all of those stats.
[Midnight Chestguard] isn't my breastplate of choice because it has more of my "chosen" stat than [Mail of Fevered Pursuit] or [Skyshatter Tunic]. It's my breastplate of choice because it's just designed better. It has 3 sockets, it makes good use of the item budget by having a bit of each stat instead of stacking one, and it doesn't waste its budget on stats like Mp5. I'm not going to loot it because it's a +hit upgrade, I'm going to loot it because it's just plain better than the other options.
You guys need to stop focusing on individual stats. Use Yo's simulator, determine your own AEP values, and loot upgrades. It's really simple. All of the stats are so close in value for me now that ilvl is the largest factor in determining what is an upgrade. Not which item has more +hit rating or whatever.
I can't agree more.
What i did, probably because i was bored at work that day is an excel sheet, using the model of some previous poster here who posted his about Zul Aman loot.
I put on this sheet all the options of High-end Tier5 and Tier6 raid content sorted by slots, and put the individual stats and their AEP coefficient. It adds up and give me an overall AEP for that item, and i can easily see which item is the best for each slot and by what margin.
You also should use as AEP coefficient, not your Yo!'s results imo, but some that are used by High-end shamans, like Sebudai, because if you want to plan an 'end-game' setup you need to have it match and optimized for when you got it all, and not taking item that fill a current gap but would be obsolete once you'll get the rest.
Btw, to cross check, i'd like to know what coefficient are you currently using Sebudai?
Talking about that, have you guys also gotten some very high AEP for Bladed Shoulderpads of the Merciless ?
I looked at all the alternatived, but i haven't found any that outmatch this. Has anyone found any objectively better shoulder out there ?
I was wondering if anyone had made the comparison of WF Totem vs GoA+Flametongue totem for warriors/rogue. Does flametongue totem benefit from spelldamage? Also does imp scorch apply to the damage it causes?
I was wondering if anyone had made the comparison of WF Totem vs GoA+Flametongue totem for warriors/rogue. Does flametongue totem benefit from spelldamage? Also does imp scorch apply to the damage it causes?
As the main post and several posts in this thread will tell you if you use the search button in the upper-right, Windfury is superior past greens.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
Thanks, that's Very similar to the numbers i was using. And what about expertise?
We should wait till someone implements it in a simulator. Disquette suggested Expertise AEP = 2 x Hit Rating AEP (By the way if this is true, than [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] is still the best belt in the game.)
We should wait till someone implements it in a simulator. Disquette suggested Expertise AEP = 2 x Hit Rating AEP (By the way if this is true, than [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] is still the best belt in the game.)
Huh?
even with that value, which is way too high (how often do we actually face the mob we're attacking?), i'd have Vashj belt at 266 vs the 292 of Don Alejandro (or 269 if you use double red gem, but i'd rather go red/yellow+4agi personally).
How did you get 292 for the don alejandro? It's ~216 for me.
Anyway it's different for everyone and it doesn't seem to contribute anything to this thread if we calculate AEP values for each other.
This is something that I had posted on my guild forums.
I've been crying like a little girl about itemization lately so I decied to crunch some numbers on the subject to see if I had ground to stand on. It turns out that I do.
I apologize for the somewhat ugly formatting but the data contained inside is still kind of interesting.
Strength is the best attribute for enhancement shaman. Since there is no well itemized mail armor with strength, Shaman are forced to take good, but not optimal loot from other classes who could put the loot to better use.
The following data will support my claim.
I used these values for stat value which I find to be very accurate for my current gear level. Feel free to twiddle these numbers, you will still see an incredibly obvious trend.
I ignored haste and armor pen for my own benefit so that I could use lootzor.
Int = MP5_____0.0 Value
Stamina_______0.4 Value
Hit rating____1.88 Value
Haste_________1.9 Value
Agi___________1.94 Value
Crit Rating___2.0 value
2 AP__________2.0 Value
Strength______2.2 Value
Ignoring Armor type I ran these values through all of the following armor slots to determine which gear is best for enhancement.
Ilvl = Item Level.
Value = Value of the item to an enhance shaman(using values above)
Eff = Item efficiency. Value / ILvl
boot Slot
Item Name___________________Item Type___Ilvl_Val__Eff
Dreadboots of the Legion____PlateRaid___141__250__1.77
Shadowmaster's Boots________LeatherRaid_141__235__1.66
Softstep Boots of Tracking__MailRaid____141__230__1.63
The mail offering for foot slot is atleast in the ballpark with the other types. Sadly the poor item efficiency of the mail item leaves the plate offering to be clearly superior.
Shoulder Slot
Item Name_________________________Item Type___Ilvl_Val__Eff
Blood-stained Pauldrons___________PlateRaid___141__240__1.70
Mantle of Darkness________________LeatherRaid_141__230__1.63
Shoulders of the Hidden Predator__MailRaid____141__230__1.63
Skyshatter Pauldrons______________MailRaid____146__220__1.50
Again plate dominates due to the highest item efficiency. Skyshatter has a poor offering with terrible item efficiency.
Leg Slot
Item Name_____________________Item Type___Ilvl_Val__Eff
Legguards of Endless Rage_____PlateRaid____151__330__2.18
Bow-stitched Leggings_________MailRaid_____141__310__2.19
Leggings of Murderous Intent__LeatherRaid__138__280__2.02
Skyshatter Pants______________MailRaid_____146__280__1.91
The leg slot is actually the showing for mail items with the Bow stiched Leggings providing strong item efficiency. Plate still provides the best overall offering but it is due to item level. In this slot Skyshatter is over 10% worse than Bow-Stitched despite having a higher item level.
This one is brutal. There are 4 non-mail items better for me than any of the mail options. The 2 mail options that do exist are the worst designed items of the bunch for item efficiency. The Skyshatter tunic (from illidan) is itemized SO poorly that it is effectively a sidegrade to a leather piece from SSC almost 20 item levels its inferior.
Head Slot
Item Name________________________Item Type____Ilvl_Val__Eff
Cursed Vision of Sargeras________LeatherRaid__151__380__2.5
Helm of the Illidari Shatterer___PlateRaid____141__335__2.3
Forest Prowler's Helm____________MailRaid_____141__295__2.09
Skyshatter Cover_________________MailRaid_____146__295__2.02
Again the item efficiency of the mail items is far behind the alternative leather and plate items. Skyshatter once again is miles behind where it could have been.
In summary the gear 'designed' for us is 'pound for pound' the worst gear available for us. In my opinion the biggest buff that we could hope to receive is for us to get equivalent itemization as the other classes.
What i did, probably because i was bored at work that day is an excel sheet, using the model of some previous poster here who posted his about Zul Aman loot.
I put on this sheet all the options of High-end Tier5 and Tier6 raid content sorted by slots, and put the individual stats and their AEP coefficient. It adds up and give me an overall AEP for that item, and i can easily see which item is the best for each slot and by what margin.
You also should use as AEP coefficient, not your Yo!'s results imo, but some that are used by High-end shamans, like Sebudai, because if you want to plan an 'end-game' setup you need to have it match and optimized for when you got it all, and not taking item that fill a current gap but would be obsolete once you'll get the rest.
Btw, to cross check, i'd like to know what coefficient are you currently using Sebudai?
Talking about that, have you guys also gotten some very high AEP for Bladed Shoulderpads of the Merciless ?
I looked at all the alternatived, but i haven't found any that outmatch this. Has anyone found any objectively better shoulder out there ?
I've done the same thing myself with an Excel sheet after seeing Rob's post =). I show the Bladed Shoulerpads with a higher AEP than both T4 and T5 as well. I assume all gem slots will be reds for comparison's sake due to not necessarily knowing which ones will be used for the RED requirements.
As far as the Belt of One-Hundred Deaths, if I use my current AEP values and assume expertise has an AEP of 2.3 (hit rating * 1.8 * 75%, Rob's suggested value in this post) it is rated at 221.8 and is only beat by Boneweave Girdle at 222.7. If I use Sebudai's numbers with Disquette's suggestion for AEP the Belt of One-Hundred Death's is 262.2 with Boneweave second at 232.3. I'd wager a guess the final value for expertise might be between those two numbers which would still put the Belt of One-Hundred Deaths worthy of your waist slot for a good long while.
even with that value, which is way too high (how often do we actually face the mob we're attacking?), i'd have Vashj belt at 266 vs the 292 of Don Alejandro (or 269 if you use double red gem, but i'd rather go red/yellow+4agi personally).
I guess maybe I don't understand how expertise works if it's way too high.
Assume: White damage = 50%, Yellow damage = 50% (simplified, i know)
Known: 1% hit = 15.8 HR, 1% non-dodge = 15.8 ER
Known: Dodges can happen from behind.
For white damage alone, up to the expertise cap, expertise rating is exactly as good as hit rating, since 1% non-miss = 1% non-dodge.
If yellow dps = white dps, then each non-dodge yellow functions exactly the same as a non-dodge white damage.
So, hit would be worth exactly 2x as much because it functions as hit does, but for yellow and white damage. If you're attacking from the front, it'd be ~ 3x as much, because you're reducing parries too.
Is there something really stupid that I'm missing, or is the quibble just with the approximation of 50% white / 50% yellow.
How did you get 292 for the don alejandro? It's ~216 for me.
Anyway it's different for everyone and it doesn't seem to contribute anything to this thread if we calculate AEP values for each other.
you're completely right, i just checked i pust the ap into haste rating. Duh me :p
Originally Posted by Disquette
I guess maybe I don't understand how expertise works if it's way too high.
Assume: White damage = 50%, Yellow damage = 50% (simplified, i know)
Known: 1% hit = 15.8 HR, 1% non-dodge = 15.8 ER
Known: Dodges can happen from behind.
For white damage alone, up to the expertise cap, expertise rating is exactly as good as hit rating, since 1% non-miss = 1% non-dodge.
If yellow dps = white dps, then each non-dodge yellow functions exactly the same as a non-dodge white damage.
So, hit would be worth exactly 2x as much because it functions as hit does, but for yellow and white damage. If you're attacking from the front, it'd be ~ 3x as much, because you're reducing parries too.
Is there something really stupid that I'm missing, or is the quibble just with the approximation of 50% white / 50% yellow.
It's not my day. Two posts and two dumb mistakes.
I stand corrected again, you are completely right i confess i hadn't gone through your post at length enough, but if it works as your little sample testing seem to show, then it is a good value indeed.
Looking ahead to 2.3, I've got maybe 4 upgrades I can get from the new Zul'Aman drops and/or badge loot. I've been wearing the T4 helm for some time, and one of the new helms is over a 100 AEP upgrade, but at the cost of losing the RED. Is this just a matter of "run the simulator", or is there a point at which we know that enough AEP is more than the 1% DPS increase (At 30% crit, obviously more as crit increases) from the RED?
Along that lines, I'm going to want to maximize my badge gains, whats the current agreed on instance for badges:time?
After seeing some of the new drops available from BT and ZA, Im curious whether or not procuring any of the haste drops will be to our advantage as DW shaman. As it has been stated, we need to avoid getting into the timing valley.
As it has been stated, we need to avoid getting into the timing valley.
That was refuted quite some time ago actually. I do apologize that the OP still referred to it in a way, although it also included some strong cautionary statements saying "just a theory, don't worry about it". I just need to get around to updating that a bit. Basically the white DPS gain at that attack speed would negate whatever extra time you're spent waiting for a WF to finish cooldown.
Looking ahead to 2.3, I've got maybe 4 upgrades I can get from the new Zul'Aman drops and/or badge loot. I've been wearing the T4 helm for some time, and one of the new helms is over a 100 AEP upgrade, but at the cost of losing the RED. Is this just a matter of "run the simulator", or is there a point at which we know that enough AEP is more than the 1% DPS increase (At 30% crit, obviously more as crit increases) from the RED?
well... *if* the AEP numbers for the weapon dps figures are right, then do we not have every coefficient accounted for in terms of where our dps comes from?
So if you had:
96 * 9 (mh dps * mh aep) + 96 * 3.4 (oh dps * oh aep) = 864 + 326
and lets say an average AEP of 200 per gear slot (14?) = 14 * 200 = 2800
Your total damage contribution from gear and weapons = 3990
100 / 3990 = 2.5%
You say RED = 1% dps to you? So then 100 AEP would be better since 100 AEP = 2.5% dps increase.
This is only valid if you can indeed say that your dps is fully encapsulated by the AEP gear and Weapon numbers.
well... *if* the AEP numbers for the weapon dps figures are right, then do we not have every coefficient accounted for in terms of where our dps comes from?
So if you had:
96 * 9 (mh dps * mh aep) + 96 * 3.4 (oh dps * oh aep) = 864 + 326
and lets say an average AEP of 200 per gear slot (14?) = 14 * 200 = 2800
Your total damage contribution from gear and weapons = 3990
100 / 3990 = 2.5%
You say RED = 1% dps to you? So then 100 AEP would be better since 100 AEP = 2.5% dps increase.
This is only valid if you can indeed say that your dps is fully encapsulated by the AEP gear and Weapon numbers.
Even naked you still have some base strength and agility (maybe ~400 AEP worth at my gear level). Not enough of a difference to sway your conclusion, but not negligible either.
hi guys, i have a "problem" concernig the trinket Romulo's Poison Vial - Items - World of Warcraft
its valued only the hit=49 aep. but if the poison makes 2% dmg from us, lets say from 600dps only, its 12 dps, lets say 10 dps. 10 dps=140 ap? so this trinket is at 189 aep ? there must be something wrong, 10dps=140ap i think seems wrong? if not, this trinket would be also a very nice one doesnt it?
140 attack power increases dps by a lot more than 10. I'm guessing that trinket actually comes in around 120 AEP. I have to head back to work, so someone else will have to explain the math for you!
A rule of thumb that I used when I was back in the rogue world, which has limited but some semblance to the shaman world, is that 14 AP = 3 dps at level 60 with T3 gear levels.
14 AP = 1dps only if:
you only auto-attack
no offhand
0% crit
0% armor
0% miss / dodge / block / parry
the amount of your total damage the poison vial makes up of your dps as your gear increases becomes smaller and smaller, making it not scale all that well. This means that as you do better and better, the vial becomes less and less desirable. DST's haste rating is always good as it helps no matter what gear you have.
also, dps ->ap is not a straight conversion of 1 -> 14 simply because the ap applies to more than just our weapon damage (it applies to both of our weapons for one thing) In any case, that is why Malan has the "plus some unknown value for the proc" (edit: Disquette just said this above me)
(though it would be arguable if it had some sort of spelldamage coefficient)
10/29/07, 8:24 PM
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