OK , now its more clear.

Hit maybe isnt THAT important , but with just +9% from talents you have base 17% miss rate. 21% agains a boss. At every fifth atack you have no chance WF proc , with low or none haste ratings it is a lot IMO.

What i want to say that in the Theorycraft is written that hit rating changes only 45-50% of our damage (white attacks , +9% hit from talents). I say hit rating also lowers the time between WF procs.
With high haste rating and crit chance this influence is very low , but without haste it has some kind of importance, becose i want my WF as often as possible.

AEP difference is pretty small only 3. And this whole weapon AEP is pretty new threory. I personally use 8.48 mh Wdps AEP and 4.24 oh Wdps AEP. If you use those Rising tide > Netherbane. But my suggest is put your Rising tide to mainhand then choose Merciless gladiator pummeler or Netherbane to OH. Then just wait/hope that Syphon of the Nathrezim drop.

First i was really confused , but thinking on it i know what you mean , but this CAN be right and CAN be wrong. No one can really say that with low hit rating you will miss during WF cooldown and hit during no WF cooldown.

Wait , that would be interessing adon. Can anyone do this ? Adon that will show how much % of attacks you miss while the WF cooldown is ON and how much % while is OFF

Perhaps it would help us understand your point if you wrote a small "combat simulator", maybe in visual basic, maybe in java, your choice really, to mimic combat, taking into account such things. Then you could show us the actually affect of hit rating vis a vis windfury on dps, and we could look at numbers and results instead of just feelings.

Just to clear things up :

Against a same level opponent you have 6% miss, against a lvl 73 or boss it is 9%.

So when dual wielding it is 25% and 28% respectively (this has been discussed and proved some time ago in another thread).

So with 9% from talents you have 19% miss against a boss.


Anyway if you use Yo's simulator it doesn't speculate on the value of hit, it just simulates a (long) fight, so the benefit of hits in WF procs is already taken into account when the AEP is calculated. And all the results are showing hit is the less valuable stat for us (for example, 1% crit has generally the same AEP value as 1,5% to 2% hit).

I'm questioning the use of this topic at the moment. More then half of the posts on the last 10+ (yes, I pulled this number out my ass but I'm sure more people here share the feelings) is from new posters comming here questioning our hit rating results or just being plain ignorant in general.

Maybe some special "stop annoying everyone with your feelings/questions about hit rating/etc" moderation might be needed for this topic?

Well sorry i simplified a bit too much on this sentence

But well, if you only have the 9% hit from talent stormstrike never misses even on a boss, but still can be parried, dodged or blocked (as well as the normal hits).


The discussion is about hits proccing WF, so i was only taking into account the normal hits, not the windfury procs. If you consider hitting with always flurried 2.6 weapons (so 2.0 between hits) and no misses, SS is exactly 16,6666....% of your total hits (parries, dodges or blocks don't affect this because you have the same amount in white and yellow attacks). If you are not hit capped, SS is an even bigger part of your hits, it comes around 20% with ~100 hit.

Anyway, what I wanted to say is that a significant part of our windfury are coming from stromstrike, and increasing hit will never ever increase those procs, this is one of the facts that makes hit less important for WF procs.


Sorry again, I was speaking about the global proc rate, I mean we all know that WF has a 20% or 36% proc rate on eligible hits, but the hidden cooldown and weapon speed, as well as your hit rating affect the real proc rate. We all know that using slow weapons leads to a better global proc rate. The same way, increasing your hit leads to a somewhat worse global proc rate because you will get more normal hits while gaining few WF procs.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's looking as though after 2.3 enchant setup will ideally be executioner/mongoose. Assuming an RT/syphon MH/OH combo, would you put the executioner on the MH?

There's no evidence that either hand affects the proc rate, so it really doesn't matter. You can put it on either hand.

Thanks for responding! No one else did :-P

The issue I have with that is that the Merciless Weapon is ALSO more AEP than Rising Tide in the MH. Looks as if RT is worthless!

Time to hand out moderation privileges to Malan just for this thread!

About Executioner, I'm not convinced, does anyone have some math on it?

Rob worked it out at some point in this thread I think, or maybe someone linked it from another thread, I forget which. I believe that the ballpark figure was that Mongoose and Executioner basically provide the same DPS increase.

Yeah I saw that, figured maybe by now more people had run some tests on the PTR. Armor Penetration is nice I guess, but it's damn pretty seeying 50%+ crit on your character tab :P

Search is your friend.
[Raid] Executioner vs. Mongoose, preliminary numbers

My bad, I was planning on asking for newer maths then those. As in maths from the latest PTR push, who knows whether Executioner not double stacking was intended or not.

That can't be correct. Rising tide has higher dps and top end dmg than the MGC. Even without thinking about SS or WF, the MGC would need minimum 35 more AP to equal the RT in dps. The reality is it's probably more.

AEP is a guideline, not law. Please use common sense when making judgments about weapon upgrades.

I would put mongoose on your MH, executioner on OH. This is solely for the reason that if you have to put on a shield, you want your wep in the Mh to have mongoose as it gives a slight bit more survivability then executioner.

Please look at the weapons before stating wrong information. Rising Tide only has a 313 High End dmg and MGP has 330.

No, he was right. Look up 2 posts where I did the calculations myself.

Quite hard to define the real bonus of Executionner no ? As if i've understood well (and thinking of how armor works) the more you have armor penetration the more you hit harder, so with the coming of new items with armor penetration (in ZA and Arena) we would be able to have a good amount of passive armor penetration, dealing more damages when execuionner proc than someone without any passive armor penetration proccing it ? To my mind executionner can be definetely better than moongoose at some point of passive armor penetration

Actually, I goofed on the high end damage. RT has a higher bottom end dps (208 compared to MGC 177), but a lower top end (313 vs 330). I made the mistake of thinking a higher dps weapon of the same speed would have a higher bottom and top for damage. Sorry, common sense failed me that time.

But my point of weapon dps still stands, it would takes a decent amount of stats to make up for a 3 point dps difference for a MH. For an offhand the difference is less clear.

I have an off topic problem.

During today i arrived at page 60 reading the thread.
Is there any possibility to delete redundant posts?

There are a bunch of double questions(including mine from yesterday ) it is really annoying to read it.
But if I avoid reading it all there will be even more doubleposts.

To begin all posts I did the last days(including this one) could be deleted without loosing anything.
Make the post to 20 sites again....

I and i think most of us would appreciate this.