Boethius is getting some new EJ server stuff set up and then hopefully we'll see the wiki open soon. The wiki will need more fine tuning - I didn't just copy/paste, I took it as a good time to rewrite a lot of stuff and add better documentation. I stopped updating it a few weeks ago though when 2.3 changes started rolling in, it was too much work keeping 2 pages simultaneously updated that each use different formating tags.
Are there any major tidbits of info that I have not updated the OP with? I suppose a real FAQ section might at some point be ok for some of the more minor questions, but I think that for the most part every question you could ask can be reasonably inferred from the info available.
So then because I have another question after not found it with search function.
(i am sure it ws mentioned beforebut still i don't find it...)
My idea is that with every haste rating I will have to give +hit a higher rating?!
Say 50% is white damage.
With +haste only white damage will be raised so after that we'll have 55% white damage.
Do I have to give +hit a 10% higher rating then?
I noticed on ptr that expertise doesn't seem to scale the same way as hit rating between points and ratings. Hit rating is 15.8 rating=1% hit while according to the character sheet 5 expertise is 1 point of expertise wich is 0.25% dodge and parry reduction so 20 expertise rating would be 1% reduction in parry and dodge. I think that should twist the calculations a bit.
As I understand it, 15.8 expertise rating = 4 expertise = -1% dodge. 10 expertise rating, in your example, is equivalent to 2.53 expertise, which is rounded down to 2 expertise. So you're right that there are some discrepancies (because expertise rounds) but multiplying by 15.8/20 isn't a correct way to deal with those.
Technically, you need to sum up the expertise rating across all your items, divide by 15.8, take the floor, and multiply by 15.8 again, just to convert it into hit AEP. This gives us a really nasty problem, which is that expertise rating is not only non-linear in AEP, it's not even contiguous: a jump of one expertise rating may have 0 AEP (example: we go from 14 expertise rating to 15 expertise rating) while a jump of two expertise rating at the same point may have AEP equivalent to about 4/15.8*hit (we go from 14 expertise rating to 16 and thus 0.75% dodge reduction to 1.00% dodge reduction).
The best way, IMO, to value items at this point, is to use the provided formula. Although, I'll admit I haven't considered the impact that crits/glances will have on that, but I don't think it's been conclusively proven the mechanic by which expertise works (i.e. are dodges converted to hits, or are dodges removed from the attack table? in the former scenario, crits/(crits+hits) decreases but in the latter scenario, crits/(crits+hits) remains constant.)
With Lootzor not being updated and Thottbot's item sorting lacking due to not counting sockets, I've made use of my excess free time lately and made some spreadsheets which somewhat mimic them. I did so as I wanted to have a reference point for comparing future upgrades. I'm sharing it as I'm sure some of you are in the same boat.
I split it into pre-raid, low raid, mid raid and high raid. All you have to do is input your own AEP values on the first sheet and the "Items" sheet will update and give your AEP values for the items. There's no guarantees that its perfectly done and there's a chance I messed up somewhere along the line. There is some overlap so its possible to compare what you have now to what you may soon get in the next tier of raiding. Nonetheless, I'll fix any problems as I come across them.
There are four different spreadsheets. "Pre-raid" with default values from the first page for entry raid shaman. "Low Raid" with default values from the first page. "Mid Raid" with default values being my current values. "High Raid" with default values belonging to Sebudai's from one of his posts:
All credit goes to this thread, I'm just a compiler of information. Hope its useful for you .
Last edited by Weem : 11/03/07 at 6:02 PM.
Reason: Fixed links again
I have updated the section on Weapon Expertise with Rob's explanation above.
It seems I broke the Pawn string in the OP, I tried importing that last night and Pawn kept bitching that it didn't recognize it. Anyone see a glaring mistake?
Weem, checking those out now, might include them in the OP. Did you include all the new 2.3 items?
Thanks for your job Weem it's great ! i hope you'll add S3 Arena gear and other 2.3 items soon, 'cause i don't really understand how to add them by myself
With Lootzor not being updated and Thottbot's item sorting lacking due to not counting sockets, I've made use of my excess free time lately and made some spreadsheets which somewhat mimic them. I did so as I wanted to have a reference point for comparing future upgrades. I'm sharing it as I'm sure some of you are in the same boat.
I split it into pre-raid, low raid, mid raid and high raid. All you have to do is input your own AEP values on the first sheet and the "Items" sheet will update and give your AEP values for the items. There's no guarantees that its perfectly done and there's a chance I messed up somewhere along the line. There is some overlap so its possible to compare what you have now to what you may soon get in the next tier of raiding. Nonetheless, I'll fix any problems as I come across them.
All credit goes to this thread, I'm just a compiler of information. Hope its useful for you .
Thank for your effort.
Sockets
Blue Socket
Red Socket
Yellow Socket
Meta Socket
This is how thottbot values sockets. Also you can treat weapon skill like expertise.
Thottbot dont count socket bonus like lootzor does but I prefer thottbot.
I am having trouble with getting Yo's Simulator to work. I have the latest edition of java installed and have tried it on both WinXP pro / KDE 3.5 in mozilla, ie, konqueror - but it was working for me a few weeks ago, is anyone else having a similar issue? I also get a small java popup window in the corner from it that links to a russian website - its not malware or anything on my computer, its definitely from the applet.
Sorry to pollute the thread, i just thought other people may be having the same issues.
With Lootzor not being updated and Thottbot's item sorting lacking due to not counting sockets, I've made use of my excess free time lately and made some spreadsheets which somewhat mimic them. I did so as I wanted to have a reference point for comparing future upgrades. I'm sharing it as I'm sure some of you are in the same boat.
I split it into pre-raid, low raid, mid raid and high raid. All you have to do is input your own AEP values on the first sheet and the "Items" sheet will update and give your AEP values for the items. There's no guarantees that its perfectly done and there's a chance I messed up somewhere along the line. There is some overlap so its possible to compare what you have now to what you may soon get in the next tier of raiding. Nonetheless, I'll fix any problems as I come across them.
With Lootzor not being updated and Thottbot's item sorting lacking due to not counting sockets, I've made use of my excess free time lately and made some spreadsheets which somewhat mimic them. I did so as I wanted to have a reference point for comparing future upgrades. I'm sharing it as I'm sure some of you are in the same boat.
I split it into pre-raid, low raid, mid raid and high raid. All you have to do is input your own AEP values on the first sheet and the "Items" sheet will update and give your AEP values for the items. There's no guarantees that its perfectly done and there's a chance I messed up somewhere along the line. There is some overlap so its possible to compare what you have now to what you may soon get in the next tier of raiding. Nonetheless, I'll fix any problems as I come across them.
He made one that says Pre-Raid right in that post.
Guys Lootzor works perfectly fine for everything until you're in T6 content. Yah the site isnt being updated but unless you need to view things with -Armor or Haste on it, it works fine.
Malan: I do have all the 2.3 items unless I accidentally missed an item (I wouldn't put it passed me to do so).
Lorka: I hadn't intended to included the S3 items. However, upon further review they aren't too far off from what one would have going into Mid Raid content so I'll put them there.
Glayde/Pitbuller: I don't mess with Thottbot as I never liked the way it worked. The thing with sockets is second-hand knowledge. At one point I don't think it did include sockets which it seems is no longer the case.
And Malan is right about Lootzor. It does work fine unless your item will have expertise, haste or ignore armor.
Thanks for all the great information in this thread.
I have never been all that happy with Lootzor because it always puts BOP crafted items in the list which require a profession I don't have.
Is the link for the Mid Raid xls sheet posted by Weem working correctly? Whenever I try to use it, I get thrown back to the main filefront.com page. The low raid .xls link forks fine for me.
Guys Lootzor works perfectly fine for everything until you're in T6 content. Yah the site isnt being updated but unless you need to view things with -Armor or Haste on it, it works fine.
With the introduction of Zul'aman, "until you're in T6 content" becomes "until you've cleared Karazhan" and so Lootzor is just a pretty weak tool overall at this point.
Originally Posted by Weem
Glayde/Pitbuller: I don't mess with Thottbot as I never liked the way it worked. The thing with sockets is second-hand knowledge. At one point I don't think it did include sockets which it seems is no longer the case.
I think the issue is/was inconsistency in including socket bonuses, and that it has bugged values for certain items (e.g. Skyshatter gloves score lower than Cataclysm somehow and the issue isn't with my scoring parameters). I'm using Thottbot, but with a firm eye towards "sanity checking" the numbers. I really wish Wowhead would integrate a tool like this, since everyone else seems to be getting it wrong somehow.
Lorka: I hadn't intended to included the S3 items. However, upon further review they aren't too far off from what one would have going into Mid Raid content so I'll put them there.
Thanks if you do it altought i hope to see those items in high raid too, as compared to some pve items they can make a good alternative. Anyway don't bother if it's too much work i can work with two different sheets if i have to
Thanks for all the great information in this thread.
I have never been all that happy with Lootzor because it always puts BOP crafted items in the list which require a profession I don't have.
Is the link for the Mid Raid xls sheet posted by Weem working correctly? Whenever I try to use it, I get thrown back to the main filefront.com page. The low raid .xls link forks fine for me.
That was my fault. I re-uploaded the Mid Raid but failed to update the link. Should be working fine now.
I am having trouble with getting Yo's Simulator to work. I have the latest edition of java installed and have tried it on both WinXP pro / KDE 3.5 in mozilla, ie, konqueror - but it was working for me a few weeks ago, is anyone else having a similar issue? I also get a small java popup window in the corner from it that links to a russian website - its not malware or anything on my computer, its definitely from the applet.
Sorry to pollute the thread, i just thought other people may be having the same issues.
Try closing down programs like WoW as well. I was unable to run the sim and wow at the same time until I upgraded to my core 2 duo.
The BB, where being accepted matters
Originally Posted by Kazanir
This thread is hurting my self-esteem because I've never been hit on (to my knowledge) by a gay man. :/
Got a semi-off topic for you brainiacs with the Simulators. According to the entry post here, SS and WF are both not normalized. They are also on a 3 second cooldown. Would our DPS be better or worse if they removed the 3 second CD, but normalized the SS and Windfury attacks?
It seems I broke the Pawn string in the OP, I tried importing that last night and Pawn kept bitching that it didn't recognize it. Anyone see a glaring mistake?
Got a semi-off topic for you brainiacs with the Simulators. According to the entry post here, SS and WF are both not normalized. They are also on a 3 second cooldown. Would our DPS be better or worse if they removed the 3 second CD, but normalized the SS and Windfury attacks?
Well, it depends how they were normalized. If they were normalized at 1.0 weapon speed, they'd be better off as they are. If the were normalized like rogue weapon normalization (1.7 I think for daggers, 2.4 speed I think for other 1 handed weapons), it would probably be an increase in dps. I'm not sure though. It would also depend on whether or not the dual-wield 36% chance on hit to proc persisted.
If it were 36%, and right now we automatically give up at least one attack to the 3 second cooldown, I find it very unlikely that our dps would decrease in the system you suggest. Getting a rougly 33% bump in WF procs for an 8% decrease in attack damage (assuming a 2.6 weapon normalized to 2.4 speed) seems like a pretty good deal, even if stormstrike damage decreased with slower weapons.
I assume, by the way, that you would have to keep at least a 0.5 second cooldown, else we're back in the land of occasionally one shotting people with a quad proc off starting combat with MH, OH, MHSS, OHSS + WF_MHx2 + WF_OHx2. assuming a MH hit of 600 damage, OH of 300 damage, and 1/3 of the attacks critting, with each proc'ing WF (cause of no cooldown), that =
MH hit x 2 = 1200
OH hit x 2 = 600
MH WF x 4 = 3600 (approx, inc the WF ap bonus)
OH WF x 4 = 1800
subtotal = 7200
multiply by 1.33 for crits...
7200 x 1.33 = 9576
I don't think Blizzard would want that to exist in the game, even if that string would happen only 1.7% of the time. That's still one-shotting people on average once per every 2 BGs.
11/01/07, 3:02 PM
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