Well, it depends how they were normalized. If they were normalized at 1.0 weapon speed, they'd be better off as they are. If the were normalized like rogue weapon normalization (1.7 I think for daggers, 2.4 speed I think for other 1 handed weapons), it would probably be an increase in dps. I'm not sure though. It would also depend on whether or not the dual-wield 36% chance on hit to proc persisted.
If it were 36%, and right now we automatically give up at least one attack to the 3 second cooldown, I find it very unlikely that our dps would decrease in the system you suggest. Getting a rougly 33% bump in WF procs for an 8% decrease in attack damage (assuming a 2.6 weapon normalized to 2.4 speed) seems like a pretty good deal, even if stormstrike damage decreased with slower weapons.
I assume, by the way, that you would have to keep at least a 0.5 second cooldown, else we're back in the land of occasionally one shotting people with a quad proc off starting combat with MH, OH, MHSS, OHSS + WF_MHx2 + WF_OHx2. assuming a MH hit of 600 damage, OH of 300 damage, and 1/3 of the attacks critting, with each proc'ing WF (cause of no cooldown), that =
MH hit x 2 = 1200
OH hit x 2 = 600
MH WF x 4 = 3600 (approx, inc the WF ap bonus)
OH WF x 4 = 1800
subtotal = 7200
multiply by 1.33 for crits...
7200 x 1.33 = 9576
I don't think Blizzard would want that to exist in the game, even if that string would happen only 1.7% of the time. That's still one-shotting people on average once per every 2 BGs.
Or about as often as Mages get a chance to do so with an AP PoM Pyro + Zerker buff :P
I made a post about this on the shaman forums. Internet hilarity ensued. Despite my attempts to link to everyone the proof that WF is indeed not normalized ATM, some silly shaman there insists it is. Oh well, I dont know why I even bothered :P
Point is that if you normalise WF and SS then while SS gets fixed number of attacks WF does NOT. Number of WF attacks is directly connected with number of attacks you did. If 3 second cooldown would not exist then different weapon speed WF's would end with identical damage as what one wins in damage, it loses in number of attacks. Due to cooldown however the scales are weighed towards slow weapons.
With your suggested change it would be heavily weighed for fast weapons. All due to WF fixed proc rate opposed to cooldown ability (like MS for example). In other words fast weapons get far more procs than slow ones. However, due to normalization slow weapons would not have damage advantage to make up for it.
Point is that if you normalise WF and SS then while SS gets fixed number of attacks WF does NOT. Number of WF attacks is directly connected with number of attacks you did. If 3 second cooldown would not exist then different weapon speed WF's would end with identical damage as what one wins in damage, it loses in number of attacks. Due to cooldown however the scales are weighed towards slow weapons.
With your suggested change it would be heavily weighed for fast weapons. All due to WF fixed proc rate opposed to cooldown ability (like MS for example). In other words fast weapons get far more procs than slow ones. However, due to normalization slow weapons would not have damage advantage to make up for it.
Most decent fast weapons are offhand only. The exception of course is daggers which would be on their own 1.7 factor. Your fears are very misplaced.
No, he's right. The point of normalization is to reduce or remove weapon speed as a deciding factor when choosing weapons. The windfury mechanic is such that if you take away the 3s CD windfury no longer cares what your weapon speed is. This relies on fast weapons getting more but smaller procs and slow weapons getting fewer but larger procs. If you then normalize this fast weapons will still get more procs, but they will be the same size as slow weapon procs, reversing the weapon speed bias we have now instead of eliminating it.
Unless, of course, you're talking about normalizing ppm as well as damage... Hmm, maybe I should read that thread and see.
I just made a pair of Fel Edged Battle axes and was going to put Mongoose on them but another Shaman told me not to do it because it will cancel the Flurry proc. Is this true ?. and if so is it still worth all the mats or should i just get the +20 Attack power Enchant.
I just made a pair of Fel Edged Battle axes and was going to put Mongoose on them but another Shaman told me not to do it because it will cancel the Flurry proc. Is this true ?. and if so is it still worth all the mats or should i just get the +20 Attack power Enchant.
Yep, mongoose is a horrible enchant. I personally go with 40 spell damage to buff my shock damage.
I'm thinking of going enhancement at the moment, and got enhancer and with the stat weights all the leather items in Karazhan are better than the mail ones, which is normal since intelect and mp5 have no weight whatsover.
But is going full leather good or is there a minimum amount of mana an enhancement shaman should have? I looked and if I have zero intelect from items my mana pool is of 4400, but I haven't tried enhancement in raids yet so I don't know if that's enough even with Shamanistic Rage, potions, and Judgement of Wisdom.
Edit: I did read the whole main post and saw that intelect should not be bothered with but I'm simply wondering if there isn't a bare minimum.
Great post by the way, it really helped me understand this aspect of my class and how it works
No, he's right. The point of normalization is to reduce or remove weapon speed as a deciding factor when choosing weapons. The windfury mechanic is such that if you take away the 3s CD windfury no longer cares what your weapon speed is. This relies on fast weapons getting more but smaller procs and slow weapons getting fewer but larger procs. If you then normalize this fast weapons will still get more procs, but they will be the same size as slow weapon procs, reversing the weapon speed bias we have now instead of eliminating it.
Unless, of course, you're talking about normalizing ppm as well as damage... Hmm, maybe I should read that thread and see.
I made a lengthy mathematical post about it today. Of course we would need some kind of very small coodlown to prevent back to back procs, but the numbers show that fast weapons would now only slightly (2%) outfavor slow if WF was normalized and taken off the 3 second cooldown. It results in slightly less top end damage, but more burst damage for pvp fun :P
I've updated the comparison spreadsheets and included the S3 gear as suggested. You'll find the S3 gear as well as the new Vindicator's gear in the pre-raid, low raid and mid raid sheets as there is a decent possibility shamans will have any or all of those pieces all the way up to and including SSC and TK. And as always, let me know if I have any mistakes in there.
I don't know where you got 8.2 WF attacks from 41 hits with no cooldown from. 41 hits at a 36% chance to proc WF is 14.76 WF procs, or 29.52 WF attacks. Redoing the math with an accurate number of procs, you get:
Fist: 6273 AA + 11689.92 WF = 17962.92
Mace: 6480 AA + 12078.72 WF = 18558.72 (+3.3%)
Axe: 6786 AA + 12632.4 WF = 19418.4 (+8.1%)
SS being unnormalized means slower is better.
WF Normalized:
Fist: 6273 AA + 14641.92 WF = 20914.92
Mace: 6480 AA + 13530.24 WF = 20010.24 (-4%)
Axe: 6786 AA + 12047.76 WF = 18833.76 (-10%)
The difference between optimal and pessimal speeds would be bigger with WF normalized, and your WF damage numbers ignore the both bonus AP and the +40% damage, which makes the difference vastly more significant.
Even if it did have good results, normalizing WF doesn't really make sense in the first place. Without SS and the cooldown, WF's dps is completly independant of weapon speed. Making it favor faster weapons to balance out SS favoring slower weapons is incredibly stupid compared to simply normalizing SS. Removing the cooldown would require a massive nerf to some other area of the class, though. With some haste gear and a good crit rate, normalizing and removing the cooldown from WF would be over a 25% increase in WF damage using slow weapons, and you could push your damage even higher by switching to fast weapons.
I also don't know why you say "Most decent fast weapons are offhand only. The exception of course is daggers which would be on their own 1.7 factor. Your fears are very misplaced." like it's a good thing. Changing a class's mechanics so that optimal weapons simply don't exist is an incredibly terrible idea.
Shalas, I think you didn't take into account the offhand damage penalty, or damage over all for that matter, and likewise used the wrong % for a non-cooldown based WF?
All of the math except for the WF proc rate is exactly the same as used in your post. As you ignored the OH penalty, I did as well. It's completly irrelevant without the cooldown though, as the entire concept of "stealing" procs would not exist. The chance for each non-WF hit to proc WF when you have double WF is 36%. This is as close to proven as anything about WoW mechanics can get, as it not only has a logical explaination but perfectly matches experimental data. A 36% chance to proc two additional attacks on every hit results in 72% as many WF swings as non-WF hits.
Your numbers are off. Same DPS different speed weapons all do the same auto attack DPS after all, for example.
I am pretty sure that's not all, but it's late here and I'm tired. But considering same auto attack DPS, fast weapons get even stronger following your numbers.
Fist: 6273 AA + 4067 WF = 10340
Mace: 6273 AA + 3758 WF = 10031 (-3%)
Axe: 6273 AA + 3347 WF = 9620 (-7.5%)
(taking the lowest AA number)
It also strikes me as odd that these numbers (with 2k AP) would only produce roughly 170 DPS.
Maybe I just do not get the whole point, though, and I appoligize if my very limited math skills just fail me.
All of the math except for the WF proc rate is exactly the same as used in your post. As you ignored the OH penalty, I did as well. It's completly irrelevant without the cooldown though, as the entire concept of "stealing" procs would not exist. The chance for each non-WF hit to proc WF when you have double WF is 36%. This is as close to proven as anything about WoW mechanics can get, as it not only has a logical explaination but perfectly matches experimental data. A 36% chance to proc two additional attacks on every hit results in 72% as many WF swings as non-WF hits.
Yeah but I was only using one weapon, not two :P That and if the cooldown is gone, we'd actually get a true 20% proc rate, though for consistencies sake, the WF would have to be independent of each other.
What I'm saying is, if you double buff WF, your off WF proc wont make your mh use WF and vice versa. You do the calculations based on each weapon, not just a generic 40% where all 40% COULD be MH or OH. As it is right now, we have a 36% chance to get a WF to proc on either hand, or 18% procs for all our attacks. Does that make any sense?
By 'fixing' WF back to how it was pre 2.0 with no CD and no gimmicky 36%, it would be a 20% chance for each weapon for THAT weapon to proc.
Your numbers are off. Same DPS different speed weapons all do the same auto attack DPS after all, for example.
I am pretty sure that's not all, but it's late here and I'm tired. But considering same auto attack DPS, fast weapons get even stronger following your numbers.
Fist: 6273 AA + 4067 WF = 10340
Mace: 6273 AA + 3758 WF = 10031 (-3%)
Axe: 6273 AA + 3347 WF = 9620 (-7.5%)
(taking the lowest AA number)
It also strikes me as odd that these numbers (with 2k AP) would only produce roughly 170 DPS.
Maybe I just do not get the whole point, though, and I appoligize if my very limited math skills just fail me.
You dont get an equal number of attacks per minute. For instance, 60/2.6 = 23.0769, you dont actually get that .0769 attacks, so you only get 23. With a 1.7 its 35.29 or 35, etc etc. A weapons DPS is the average of its range divided by its attack speed.
If you don't think that your numbers apply to a DW situation, then why did you make a post with a large amount of math about a situation that no one gives a fuck about?
However, with no cooldown on WF and Flurry/procs ignored, the hands are completly independant. Increase the final damage done by 50% and suddenly you have the damage for both hands.
Originally Posted by Beowolf
That and if the cooldown is gone, we'd actually get a true 20% proc rate, though for consistencies sake, the WF would have to be independent of each other.
What I'm saying is, if you double buff WF, your off WF proc wont make your mh use WF and vice versa. You do the calculations based on each weapon, not just a generic 40% where all 40% COULD be MH or OH. As it is right now, we have a 36% chance to get a WF to proc on either hand, or 18% procs for all our attacks. Does that make any sense?
By 'fixing' WF back to how it was pre 2.0 with no CD and no gimmicky 36%, it would be a 20% chance for each weapon for THAT weapon to proc.
That is not how it works. If you have WF on both hands, each individual hit has a 36% chance to proc WF. Your OH WF buff DOES apply to your MH as long as your MH also has WF, and vice-versa. This is probably a bug, but one that is unlikely to be fixed anytime soon. Also, it is very likely that WF had the cooldown pre-2.0, but was never noticed due to that even without knowledge of the cooldown very slow weapons were optimal, and no real testing on Windfury mechanics was ever done due to the lack of raiding viability.
The point of normalization is to reduce or remove weapon speed as a deciding factor when choosing weapons. The windfury mechanic is such that if you take away the 3s CD windfury no longer cares what your weapon speed is.
This is exactly correct. There is no reason to normalize windfury, because without the cooldown slow weapons are not superior to fast ones. Asking for WF normalization exposes a lack of understanding of combat mechanics.
Stormstrike on the other hand is a good candidate for normalization. But it's not clear how the developers choose which instants to normalize. Nobody knows why stormstrike, riposte, mongoose bite, hemorrage, etc, aren't normalized when everything else is. Blizzard thrives on inconsistency.
If the developers feel that windfury without cooldown does too much damage, they have the ability to tune it directly by adjusting the attack power bonus on procs or (more likely) the effect of the elemental weapons talent. That's what I would do.
11/03/07, 6:04 AM
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