Nite_Moogle

Petition threads are stupid and you're stupid for posting this.[/colbert]

It's pretty obvious that the 3 second cooldown is a poor mechanic and no one here will dispute it, but there has to be some sort of cooldown for it to work in a fashion similar to what it does. You can't lower the cooldown to lower than 1 second for latency reasons (and even that's asking for trouble) largely because the client is partially responsible for determining when Windfury procs. This is evidenced by the delay between your normal hit and your windfury hit -- if the server were responsible for determining whether or not WF would hit, the two results would come back with no delay between them. This means that with a shorter cooldown in place it'd be possible to get back-to-back WF procs on a high-latency client (or for example, a client that forcibly introduced their own lag when they got in melee rage of someone).

The ability needs to be re-worked from the ground up along with the other 3 weapon buffs, but that is not likely to happen until WLK at the very soonest since any amount of tweaking would need to be very closely observed, and by and large enhancement DPS is really where it ought to be. We're seeing improvements to talents that suck like the entire rogue Sub tree but this isn't a good time to be meddling with things that do work. This is a situation where "it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies in the sense of the end results even if the method of reaching it is completely ridiculous.

 

Atren

Nite, 3 sec cooldown is devastating for 2H weapons because pretty much all of them go under 3 second with Flurry. And not to take flurry full without it is not really logical, and then remains Bloodlust which WILL take it under 3 seconds. Especially for those that raid and want to do some pvp at times too. That is where the real problem of 3 second cooldown is. PvE is fine with it, but PvP is not. I do agree about changes wont be happening before WotLK.

Concerning normalization, you would have to change entire WF mechanics and would end with something like seal of command. If you want that you might as well go paladin.

 

Beowolf

Hey guys!

I've been working on a excel sheet that can help my guild visualize how effective armor penetration is on various End Bosses/Players. The excel file is VERY easy to use, and (hopefully) bug-proof. Check it out:

BeowolfAP.xls - FileFront.com

 

anticide

nvm

 

• Shabadu

Windfury is physical damage.....

 

Atren

WF is physical attack that has no interaction with SS debuff whatsoever.

 

Tornhoof

And unfortunately you have some errors in your calculations:
Wowwiki states that the armor formula you are using is for level 1-59 only:

Formulas:Damage reduction - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

The correct formula for mobs >=60 should be:
(MobArmor - ArmorPen)/(MobAmor - ArmorPen - 22167.5 + 467.5*MobLevel)

But this formula won't help you much, since it calculates the mitigation of the mobs hits on your armor:

Basically the proper formula of you attacking a mob is:
(Armor - ArmorPen) / (Armor - ArmorPen + 10557.5)

The whole Lvl of the mob question in your excel sheet is not necessary or even wrong, the only important question is your level, not the level of your enemy.
We covered this question some 50 pages ago in this thread.

http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/

 

Astro

One question - did somebody tested what damage we can perform if use frostshock in battle with KoE and chill debuff on boss? If we don't have agro problem in this fight we can save SS debuff for elemental shammys not for our earthshock, isn't it?

 

Malan

You need to think about that one a little bit more.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

◊ Rob

It seems reasonable to alternate Flame Shock/Frost Shock if you don't have an aggro problem and are trying to save the SS debuff for your elemental shamans, but on the other hand, there are at least 5 seconds between your shocks with any spec, which is more than enough time for an elemental shaman to spam 2 LBs, so it's not really necessary. Just go Stormstrike->Flame Shock->Earth Shock->Stormstrike and you'll have very few problems.

 

Beowolf

I'm slightly confused here, Tornhoof. The Wiki seems to deal entirely with player damage reduction vs mobs of a certain level, not what mobs armor damage reduction gives them. Now granted I just woke up, but am I missing something here?

For instance:

This formula seems to be entirely for a players % reduction from a boss mob. Not only that, but if your formula is correct, it seems to be for a level 70 and not level 73 which is what this spreadsheet is designed primarily for.

Again, the spreadsheet is just an easy way to see how much a mob is mitigating YOUR damage, not how much you mitigate the BOSSES damage. I thought I was fairly certain they made player armor mitigate less in TBC by using the new formula. It doesn't make much sense they would also make boss armor mitigate less by also switching their formula. Maybe you could help clarify?

 

Tornhoof

Beowulf:

To quote wowwiki:
Armor reduces physical damage done against you by a certain proportion. It depends entirely on the level of the monster (or player) hitting you and your own armor. Your level doesn't matter.

In your spreadsheet you are the boss, you just care what level the player is who is hitting you.

The reason is quite simple:

You, the bossmob, have 5k armor for example, your armor is obviously more effective against lower enemies, e.g. lower players won't hit you as hard, but higher level players will hit you harder.

You'll just need to invert your idea and take the other perspective and you'll see why it is obvious why you need the against lvl 70 enemy formula.

If you would take your original formula with a lvl 73 mob it would never cover the case that if you are lvl 80 you hit the lvl 73 mob way harder than at lvl 70, neither does it cover the case that a lvl 60 player would hit the lvl 73 mob way less than at lvl 70, if he does actually hit.

http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/

 

Beowolf

But again, the spreadsheet shows the first box having the NPC target's level, armor, and debuffs, while the right box has your gears armor penetration and if you have the executioner weapon enchant. The final number on the left box shows the %damage per hit they are reducing your attacks by, while the final number on the right box shows how much damage gain you get when the target is debuffed with the spells and your AP gear and enchants.

Maybe I should change the title for the first two boxes? I think you are confused on what its doing, the spreadsheet shows what your targets mitigation is, not yours against the target.

 

Tornhoof

I know what it does, and yes it is still wrong
You'll need to change the box name to player level and the whole formula

http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/

 

Irukandji

yeah, i tried that - its some kind of java incompatibility error b/c i just get a red X in the corner of the applet.

i got it to work with my vista computer at work - still no luck w/ my xp / linux machines though.

 

galzohar

Just a few days ago we were told in class about java: "Write once run everywhere? more like write once debug everywhere..."

 

Beowolf

Alright Tornhoof, I've muddled through this most likely, but I've modified the formulas and uploaded a new version. Let me know if this is correct across most levels :P

BeowolfAPv2.xls - FileFront.com

This one actually shows how the debuffs and armor penetration affects abilities or weapon damage:

BeowolfAPv6.xls - FileFront.com

 

Weem

Updated the Low-Raid and Mid Raid spreadsheets again to include The Savage's Choker - Items - World of Warcraft. Somehow I missed it before and saw it drop tonight.

 

faight

I'm currently leveling a shaman on Blackrock, I'm in my mid 50's. I don't have any endgame experience raiding with enhancement, or shaman at all, I was previously a holy Paladin. Before reading this thread I was leveling with a slow mainhander and a fast offhander. Someone in my guild pointed this thread out to me and I've since switched to slow/slow and have marveled at my DPS increase. However today I was grinding out some turtles in Southern Tanaris to catch up on my skinning, which has fallen behind the level curve I'm at, and I was thinking about the posts here talking about the bug or glitch that gives each hand a 36% proc rate with windfury, and I wondered if it applied to other shaman enchants. So I threw Frostbrand on both weapons and went to work. I use Violation as a DPS meter, and I reset it before I did so. I was averaging around 200 DPS with WF/WF, and when I switched over to FB/FB I was, to my surprise, keeping the same DPS. Frostbrand doesn't seem to have a proc limit at all, there were times I would SS and get both weapons to proc, then normal swing and get both weapons to proc as well. Frostbrand at that level was doing 181-182 damage per proc, so that was about 720 damage right there, which is usually what Windfury hits for when just one mainhand weapon proc crits.

It seemed to me that my Frostbrand was proccing a lot, to the point where it felt like I was getting a proc every two attacks. Of course, I'm using slow/slow weapons (2.5 MH and 2.7 OH) so I don't know what this would be like with fast weapons. I was going to play around with Yo's simulator, but I was wondering if anyone knew if Frostbrand got the same type of proc rate increase Windfury does when stacked. I realize this probably doesn't have much effect end-game, since Windfury is obviously the better choice due to it's scaling with gear, but I was curious as to whether any one has researched Frostbrand to see it's mechanics and if trying to use two fast weapons with Frostbrand was anywhere near useable in any situation if the proc rate is increased. As I am only in my 50's I don't have access to much as far as equipment goes, but I was hoping there might be a 70 shaman sitting around with a couple 1.4-1.5 speed weapons who could test this out to see if it's even worth mentioning.

To sum it up:
Frostbrand seems to proc a lot. Is this viable for anything and is the proc rate increased when it is cast on both weapons like Windfury's is?

Edit: Cleaned up some muddled language.

 

Winfurae

Has anyone compared the Dragonstrike to the Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver? While the Cleaver does have 6 more top end damage, 5.5 more dps and good stats, I wonder how this weights against the haste proc on Dragonstrike. I forgot to mention that Dragonstrike is 2.7 while the cleaver is 2.6, this might make a difference as well.

 

• Disquette

Winfurae, this is a good opportunity for us to find out why people ask this sort of question. I can't speak for the others here, but I personally won't get snarky with you as long as you're willing to let us know why you have to ask this question.

Did you read the first post in its entirety?

If no, then can I ask why? Does it just feel like too much information?

If yes, did you not understand the part about the sims available to you, by which you could have answered this queston?

I'm genuinely curious why people ask questions that are either explicitly or implicitly answered in Malan's excellent data consolidation in the first post of this thread.

 

Winfurae

From what I have gathered from this thread it seems that Yo's! simulator is pretty enthusiastic when it comes to the uptime of Dragonstrike.

 

vorda

So we can assume you read the entire original post and understood everything there was to know before making your previous post?

(if not, feel free to give pionters on what would make it easier/more accesable)

 

• Disquette

If it's the dragonstrike proc uptime that has you concerned, I'd run the simulator two times. Do it once with the dragonstrike proc button checked, once without. From there, decide for yourself how that matches up against the S3 weapon that you'd assumedly run in a 3rd test.

I'm guessing it'd look something like this:
test1: 1000 dps (dragonstrike weapon speed/dmg, dragonstrike proc)
test2: 985 dps (S3 weapon speed/dmg, no dragonstrike proc)
test3: 950 dps (dragonstrike weapon speed/dmg, no dragonstrike proc)

You can then decide for yourself if the proc is more than 35% overvalued in the sim. I'd be curious what those 3 numbers are for you when you run the sim.

 

Malan

If any mac users that have upgraded to Leopard have managed to get Yo's sim running again, please let me know what action you took to do so.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06