I'm headed to DM to test out all of the combos(+talon), will be a while for results as there are many to test!

According to my model, Talon MH results in 10 dps less than RT MH /Syphon OH, which is again in the 1% range. Same as pretty much every permutation of these weapons.

Like I said, those are my results using Yo!'s sim, maybe it doesn't model the differences in weapon stats properly. Seems it would be fairly easy for someone else to do the same and report their findings.

I'd been using Dragonstrike for several months prior to the talon and can't say I see any difference good or bad in game. There's so much variation in enhancement DPS, I'd have a hard time believing anyone who claims they can tell the difference between any of the decent weapon choices. Without thousands of hours of controlled in game testing to back up their claims anyway.

Quick question for the gurus. I just recently replaced one of my weapons, and seeing how patch 2.3 comes out next week, I'm wanted to find out if there is an offhand proc penalty before I enchant my new offhand weapon with Mongoose. If there is essentially no difference in ppm from either hand with same speed weapons, I'll save my 400 gold and get an executioner next week. Just want to know if I should bite the bullet for now :P

There is no penalty.

So it wont matter what hand has executioner enchant on it. Good to know

That's 1.25% dodge and parry reduction, so it should definitely be worth pursuing axes.

Upto now expertise been universal, so question is are weapon specific expertise for racials only or will the equipment get them as well? Can anyone on ptr check Vashj belt for example?

vashj belt is normal weapon expertise, not tied to one weapon type

Just to make sure there is no misunderstanding: I know it so far been not tied, but with this push they added weapon specific expertise to racials so i am kinda curious if they changed the items again? Or you already checked after the push?

Concerning Executioner enchant, if it really is on same proc rate as mongoose could not we do comparison assuming 100% uptime for comparison? Reasoning for that is if it is same proc rate then we can assume same uptime on average and since we only interested which of enchants better we can up them both to 100% without skewing for one or other enchant. Easiest way to do that would be add their effects as constant in simulator. Is there some flaw or can be done?

One of the guys in the Executioner vs Mongoose thread opened a thread on the WoW boards asking for CM response about the Exeuctioner stacking issue, hopefully we'll get a response.

I see that we're back to Orcs and Axes being paired again, I love the flip flopping going on lately.

I was thinking more in line of single enchant comparison. Like if no enchant on other weapon which would show it individual worth.

As it stands other weapon will definetly be mongoose if dont stack, question is what should first one be? If we had mongoose simulated as enchant on one weapon and then cycle the effect of mongoose/executioner in stats would that show accurate description for dual mongoose vs combo of executioneer and mongoose? Imo this can be done as long as their proc rate is same and they have no inner cooldowns.

Well, this would be as simple as just comparing the values of 120 agi and 2% haste worth of haste rating, with 840(? not sure if this was the actual value of the proc or not) armor penetration.

Using the middle raid values that comes down to (2*120 + 31.6*1.48) versus (840*0.28), so 296,8 for Mongoose versus 135,20 for Executioner, pretty easy to say which is superior now, unless I screwed up majorly on my calculations here.

Gonna be hard to say if or when Executioner finally surpasses Mongoose, run the math with your own AEP values to see if it's actually worth getting for you or not.

When you start getting into T6 values and -Armor starts to get better they'll begin to equate. My armor pen value when I ran the sims (before recent upgrades) was 0.3 which would value Execution at 252 AEP, much closer to Mongoose at that point (assuming that the values of Agi/Haste held constant of course).

Eyeballing it and generalizing some figures in my head, it would appear that as long as your value of Agility is less than 2 (with kings) any value of -Armor greater than 0.35 or so will probably make Executioner worth as much or more than Mongoose.

Simple question on mechanics, does dual wielding axes give a 2.5% parry/dodge reduction, or does it not work like that. Alternatively, if you are using a RT in MH and OH'ing a syphon, will the 1.25% be between both hands or just the axe?

840*0.28 = 235.20, not 135.20. So they're closer than you suggest, but Mongoose still looks better on paper.

At T6 gear levels, we might expect:
(120*2 + 31.6*2) versus (840*0.35)
303.2 AEP (Mongoose 100% uptime) vs 294 AEP (Executioner 100% uptime)
Pretty close. At this point I'd think about picking up Executioner on one of my weapons since it's close in raids and superior in PvP.
We can expect that you will get the full parry/dodge reduction, but only for the hand you are wielding an axe in. Rising Tide (or a VG Cleaver) should still be the best MH for Orcs in 2.3 -- reducing the number of dodged WFs and SSs is a huge win.

Edit: It appears that the Human expertise skill is currently bugged and applies a +5 expertise aura, so you can DW Mace/Sword and get +10 expertise (+5 from sword spec and +5 from mace spec). Discussion here. The implication is that Orcs will currently get +5 expertise as long as they are wielding any axe. I'd expect this to get changed once they figure out how to code it properly.

Curious as to what would be best weap combo between:

Dual Syphon's and Rising tide MH/Syphon OH

Anyone?

I see that this was your first post ever on this forum. We like to encourage people to read a lot, if not all, of the thread they are responding to, before posting questions like this. Since this thread is obscenely long at this point, I'm sure you can imagine why we might not like people popping in and asking things without reading the earlier material first.

Or, in other words. RTFM!

I have a minor comment about the Stonebreaker Totem section of the OP.
I agree with the math and the general approach, but I think this is a less than useful way to present the result. The final comment tells people that Stonebreaker is better under two conditions:

1)miss rate is less than 77%
2)uptime on the buff is ~50% or better

Looking at the math, it's clear that as miss rate goes down, the required uptime to break even with Astral Winds also goes down. That being the case, why choose to present such an unrealistic data point as 77% or 93% miss rate, when none of us see this in game? The base miss rate against bosses is something around 26% isn't it? Furthermore, we all have 9% hit from talents, so realistically no raiding shaman is seeing miss rates worse than 20%.

Why not pick a conservative but more realistic value of 25% miss rate, and then solve for the required uptime? Doing so results in a required uptime on Stonebreaker of only 30%. Furthermore, if we go to the extreme and solve for a theoretical 0% miss rate, the required uptime is about 26%. This gives us a fairly narrow window of uptime requirements for the whole range of miss rates one would see in game, and one that certainly does not require perfect shock spam. (Edit: In fact, a 30% uptime requires an average of 1 shock per 17 seconds, by my math.)

The way the section is currently presented, the conclusion may lead some shaman to assume that Stonebreaker is only good if they can maintain constant shock spam. The math tells a different story, and I think it would be better to rephrase the conclusion and sample values used to more accurately reflect this.

It's the miss rate of your SHOCK spells, doesn't have anything to do with melee hit rate.