Thanks for the points you make. I guess I am assuming that the WWS DPS figure is derived from damage done/time of the fight? So I guess like all things there are many other factors to consider....damn i hate stats :-)
It really is a combination of the sum of the parts then.
WWS by default shows Instant DPS which is not just Dmg/Time. Dmg/Time is Average DPS. Instant DPS is a lot more complicated, it removes all that dead time out of the calculation during fights where you're waiting for the boss to respawn or adds to pop, like on Alar.
@Boro: Not sure for how much of the difference this can count, but if a boss fight takes longer, a smaller percentage of the fight you will have Heroism/Bloodlust, so your dps will be lower.
Extreme example: With a 40s boss fight, you will have Heroism/Bloodlust 100% of the time, increasing your dps a lot. For a 8 minute boss fight, you will have it only 8.33% of the time, so you will get a lower dps then in a shorter fight.
So if the same boss fight is shorter (because of the rest of the raid doing more damage), your dps will be higher. :-)
Presence is the amount of time you're spent "doing something" according to WWS. You can look on the WWS forums for a better explanation of it, but they do something like a check every 5 seconds to see if you performed another DPS or Healing action within 5 seconds of the last action. If you did, you're counted as being active. If you didn't, then you're counted as being inactive.
Comparing WWS/DPS between 2 different raids is really difficult, especially given the totally random effects of Windfury on a shaman's damage. Your DPS figures are going to depend a lot on what your guild strategy is, how good your tank is (TPS), what your group buffs were, etc. Its just not an accurate point of comparison, there are far too many unknowns that are not captured in a combat log.
I'm in the same boat as you. Lower dps, more total dmg. According to Recount, the other enhancement shaman in my guild (Draezy) almost always does more dps, but we trade off who comes out ahead in total dmg about 50/50
I attribute it to a couple things - riding the threat cap hard from the get-go (i.e. drop totems before the tank starts building threat), twisting in TA at the start so I don't have to worry as much about a main-hand wf double crit, and twisting GoA the rest of the fight. One thing I don't do is wait until the 3 second WF timer is up to stormstrike. Maybe that would increase my dmg but I choose not to since I'm usually trying to keep an eye on too much other stuff, and because my twisting macros handily coincide with the 10 second SS cooldown
I attribute Draezy's higher dps mostly to his orcness (axe skill and blood fury). His gear is tier six whereas mine is mostly non set items (more agi, less stam) but that doesn't seem to have made a huge difference either way
As far as caring about your dps, I value group buffing over personal dps. I'd love to do more dmg, but we're a support class first and a dps class second. And the best way to fill the support role is by:
1) staying alive
2) doing damage
3) dropping totems
4) twisting
It might suck getting used to twisting, but reduced threat for a group with three twin blades or 5% dodge for a main tank justifies making two macros and using them. So even if your dps is lower than you'd like, at least you know you're doing what you can for the rest of the raid
WWS has two different stats: presence and dps time. Presence is how much time you spent alive/online in a particular fight, regardless of what you were doing. DPS time is how much time you spent actually dps'ing something. WWS calculates your dps time as being from slightly before you do damage to slightly after (5 seconds I think). The dps it reports, then, is damage/DPS time. The thing is, when analyzing this you have to have common sense.
Two examples, at different levels so people with different experiences can understand:
- Maulgar: my guild used to kill priest> lock >shaman > mage. When we got to the mage, there was little I could do because if I got near him I would die from his AOE. During the mage phase, i could do two things: nothing, which would then NOT be counted as my dps time, and therefore my dps would be higher, but my dps time (and damage) lower; or just throw in a few LBs, in which case my DPS time would be higher, reducing the reported DPS, but increasing damage.
- Vashj: same as above, when rooted away from melee range. Do nothing and have higher DPS or LB and have higher damage, but lower dps.
That is what generally explains the situation described above, of WWS reporting lower DPS but higher damage. This is specially so for melee/caster hybrids, which face the situation described above.
@Lujaar - that same thread points out that the paper doll is obviously not reflecting how the expertise actually works. The paper doll is just going to sum the expertise, the mechanics in the background are going to actually split the expertise between general expertise from gear, and the racial expertise.
As I read it, that's just conjecture. Unless someone posted test results and I missed them, no one knows for sure how expertise racials work. I'm inclined to believe the paperdoll, as are a few people who posted in that thread, but I don't have any data to back it up.
I would vehemently disagree with you on that considering the vast number of tooltips and stats are are incorrect in the game. The paperdoll and tooltips very rarely reflect reality.
I know the whole 2H vs DW thing has been done before, and the Kael weapon discussion as well, but I just want to put in a few observations I had from some attempts last night.
Devastation hits like a 5v5 assist train.
In my DW focused gear (too much hit, not enough crit), I was hitting for about 1.2k, and critting for around 2.5k. My WF hit for 2k and would crit for over 4k. To put into perspective, My MH WF hits for about 900 and crits for 1.8k.
What if a shaman went to Kael wearing a more 2H optimized set of gear, favoring AP and crit over hit. In my gear setup, there's almost 6% worth of hit rating that is wasted when using Devastation, and my belt offers no skill rating bonus for axes. Would there be a gear level that would make using Devastation competitive to DW for this encounter?
What about the effect of haste and armor penetration, since gear with these stats will also be available next week?
WWS has two different stats: presence and dps time. Presence is how much time you spent alive/online in a particular fight, regardless of what you were doing. DPS time is how much time you spent actually dps'ing something. WWS calculates your dps time as being from slightly before you do damage to slightly after (5 seconds I think). The dps it reports, then, is damage/DPS time. The thing is, when analyzing this you have to have common sense.
Two examples, at different levels so people with different experiences can understand:
- Maulgar: my guild used to kill priest> lock >shaman > mage. When we got to the mage, there was little I could do because if I got near him I would die from his AOE. During the mage phase, i could do two things: nothing, which would then NOT be counted as my dps time, and therefore my dps would be higher, but my dps time (and damage) lower; or just throw in a few LBs, in which case my DPS time would be higher, reducing the reported DPS, but increasing damage.
That is what generally explains the situation described above, of WWS reporting lower DPS but higher damage. This is specially so for melee/caster hybrids, which face the situation described above.
I don't think that there is a direct relation between DPS and DPS-time in WWS. The DPS-time will only tell you for how many % of the fight your DPS was applied to the target(s) which indeed results in the total damage done. And the DPS value will only look at your Damage per second values during your actual DPS time. When you are not counted as doing damage (5 second rule refered above) your Damage done and your DPS will not change at all but will be stale instead.
Let's do this with your Maulgar example:
- For the first two minutes you are on Priest/Warlock doing 1000 DPS.
- For the next two minutes you are only dropping totems and throwing heals.
- For the last two minutes you will go in on Maulgar also doing 1000 DPS.
All lines report the total WWS if you had cut your logfile at the end of each phase.
Or what would happen if you dont idle arround when the others are killing Shammy/Mage but go for Maulgar instead (ignoring that the fight will be a bit shorter due to that):
The main problem is the itemization just isn't there to support it, and the game isn't as kind to 2hers at higher levels of itemization. Even if you skip Improved Dual Wield (admittedly easier in 2.3 with the improvement to Mental Quickness), you can't spend those 3 points elsewhere to improve your abilities since Enhancement is the only tree of the three that has things that affect your melee ability. When it comes to items, the sheer amount of AP and crit that you need to imitate a MS warrior isn't there. MS remains an inferior option for warriors in terms of pure DPS primarily because of the better returns on AP that dual wield offers -- with no awesome debuff like MS it isn't worth it unless you're crossing your fingers for an insta-gib.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
I admit... I thought the guy was an idiot. But I thought I would bounce the whole "stats have a cap/diminishing return" thing off yall.
Stacking one stat to the exclusion of all others always has "diminishing returns" in two ways:
1) Your DPS will increase by a diminishing percentage for each additional point of the stat you add.
2) The value of other stats will increase with each additional point of the stat you add.
The only exception to this general rule currently in-game is armor penetration, which exhibits constant or possibly increasing returns to scale, due to the diminishing returns granted by armor.
The person you were talking to is still an idiot, because Strength adds exactly 2 Attack Power per point, and adding Attack Power would have the exact same effect on how weapon damage is calculated.
Originally Posted by Skiace
Using the same exact formula and numbers from the OP, (Panny's method is the same one from the OP that you referenced) but solving for uptime with a more realistic miss rate of 19%, I got a required uptime in the range of 30%, which is where I got the 14 seconds from.
Then I think we agree, since the required uptime as far as I see it is ~32%.
edit: I'm also pretty sure that Thundering Strikes now properly applies to yellow attacks, so they do not see a 5% reduced crit rate. If you have a recent WWS that refutes this, please share.
You're correct, Thundering Strikes does properly apply to yellow attacks. They still see a lowered crit rate due to the two-roll system by which the result of yellow attacks is determined. Briefly, suppose crit rate is 30% and combined miss/dodge rate is 10%.
One-roll:
30% of all swings crit, attack table ensures this.
Two-roll:
First roll to see if swing hits: 90% of swings hit and 10% are miss/dodge.
Second roll to see if swing crits: 30% of swings crit.
.90*.30 = 27% of all swings crit.
You can see the effect of this by looking at a wide variety of WWS reports and I'm confident that this effect is why many people still think Thundering Strikes is bugged.
I don't think that there is a direct relation between DPS and DPS-time in WWS. The DPS-time will only tell you for how many % of the fight your DPS was applied to the target(s) which indeed results in the total damage done. And the DPS value will only look at your Damage per second values during your actual DPS time. When you are not counted as doing damage (5 second rule refered above) your Damage done and your DPS will not change at all but will be stale instead.
Huh? What is your point?
" Look[ing] at your Damage per second values during your actual DPS time" is exactly the same as damage done/dps time, which is exactly what I said.
The main problem is the itemization just isn't there to support it, and the game isn't as kind to 2hers at higher levels of itemization. Even if you skip Improved Dual Wield (admittedly easier in 2.3 with the improvement to Mental Quickness), you can't spend those 3 points elsewhere to improve your abilities since Enhancement is the only tree of the three that has things that affect your melee ability. When it comes to items, the sheer amount of AP and crit that you need to imitate a MS warrior isn't there. MS remains an inferior option for warriors in terms of pure DPS primarily because of the better returns on AP that dual wield offers -- with no awesome debuff like MS it isn't worth it unless you're crossing your fingers for an insta-gib.
I wasn't asking in the general sense of 2H vs DW, but in the context of the Kael encounter.
I realize that using a 2H for extended PvE dps is not viable. AP/Str is not abundant enough on non-plate gear, and we don't have the talents to support the playstyle either.
But Devastation is an iLvl 175 Legendary weapon. It has a dps value that eclipses any other weapon in the game, and boasts the amazingly slow speed of 3.9. WF is a non-normalized special that has an AP boost AND a 140% damage multiplier, which would mean it has an abnormally large damage return on AP. UR and Flurry uptime may be an issue, but Devastation has a flurried/hasted speed of 2.5, which may be acceptable.
Armor Penetration may grant even larger returns than other stats due to Devastation's high base dmg, but I'm not fully versed in ArPen math to work that out myself.
In a similar vein, I also used Yo's sim to model using the Infinity Blade with WF in the off-hand. My results were a fairly small (read: ~15) drop in dps. Maybe now shamans will have something to actually use besides being delivery boys.
Edit: fixed Infinity Blade comment, I seem to be very forgetful.
I don't think that there is a direct relation between DPS and DPS-time in WWS. The DPS-time will only tell you for how many % of the fight your DPS was applied to the target(s) which indeed results in the total damage done. And the DPS value will only look at your Damage per second values during your actual DPS time. When you are not counted as doing damage (5 second rule refered above) your Damage done and your DPS will not change at all but will be stale instead.
Instant DPS and DPS time are directly related.
Total Damage / Presence (seconds) * DPS Time (percentage) = Instant DPS.
Average DPS (you can show this with the config panel) is Total Damage / Presence (seconds)
They won't be perfectly accurate because displayed DPS/Presence Time is imprecise/rounded, but it's pretty easy to see that it does work that way.
Hi all. Long time troller, but I don't usually post on here. So many people have so many good ideas that it is just nice to sit back and read.
Anyways, I just picked up a Syphon last night, and have it OH to my Dragonstrike MH. From reading these threads I know that its pretty much a toss up for weapon combos if I want to DW them, get Rising Tide MH, etc. I also know that a slightly faster MH will net more MH procs.
Two questions I have:
1.) Is there a mod that will track the amount of times windfurry has procced on the MH vs the OH? In other words, I want to look back at the end of a night of raiding and see what the split is and maybe try some different combos.
2.) There is a lot of talk about using SS only when WF CD is up, but I am wondering, how many people do that and have seen a good increase in dps? I figure its pretty much not a worthwhile increase or it would be posted, but always good to ask. A few people have talked about their experiences in this, but would like to know how this effects people with my weapon set up (or similar). Thanks!
@Everyone talking about the Stonebreaker totem - all I did was copy Panny's derivations. You guys come up with something agreed on that represents it better, I'll update that section.
In that case, I propose it be changed to the following, though I would still like somone to check my method for converting buff uptime to shock frequency.
Physical Damage breakdown:
Assuming two 2.6 speed weapons, flurried to 2.0 speed, means you get around 10 white swings per SS cooldown. 40% of those swings will be WF, meaning 10 white swings, 2 SS swings, 4.8 WF swings. 10+2+4.8 = 16.8
Percent_of_WF_Swings = 4.8/16.8 = 0.286
Percent_of_SS_Swings = 2/16.8 = 0.119
Percent_of_white_Swings = 10/16.8 = 0.595
(This breakdown is conservatively in favor of the Astral Winds Totem. Many WWS parses from raids show the balance slightly shifted away from WF towards white swings)
As miss rate decreases, so does the required uptime to break even. An enhancement shaman with +9% hit from talents and no hit rating on gear would see a 19% miss rate against boss mobs, resulting in a required uptime of 29%.
Changing some values for more hit gear, we find that even if your miss rate is better than 2% the required uptime is 26.4%. This gives us a fairly good window of possible required uptimes for the Stonebreaker buff over a wide variety of gear, with a good conservative estimate being 30%.
Now what does it take to achieve a 30% uptime? Here’s a simplified formula for determining this.
(Seconds per Shock) = (Stonebreaker proc chance) * (1-Spell miss rate) * (Stonebreaker duration) * (1/Stonebreaker Uptime)
(Seconds per Shock) = (0.50)*(1-0.14)*(1/0.30) = 14.3
This means that on average, a shock every 14.3 seconds is the minimum needed to maintain 30% uptime on the totem buff and thus make it come out ahead of the Astral Winds totem.
Conclusion: The Stonebreaker totem should be superior to the Totem of Astral Winds on average if the shaman can shock at least once every 14 seconds.
This is still Panny's math as it exists in the OP, I simply solved for uptime at a base talented miss rate of 19%, and added a section about achieving the uptime goal.
1.) Is there a mod that will track the amount of times windfurry has procced on the MH vs the OH? In other words, I want to look back at the end of a night of raiding and see what the split is and maybe try some different combos.
Windfuryfu is one you can use in game. Actually just go to curse and type in windfury and you will get several mods that do this.
Edit: just looked at it and it is only good for main hand windfury so you may want to use one of the others.
Windfuryfu is one you can use in game. Actually just go to curse and type in windfury and you will get several mods that do this.
Ah, nice, I have another fubar Windfury mod I use, got from the Ace DLer. It may be listed in there, just might have missed it. Thanks! Will try that when I get home.
I don't know if this has been discussed, but is there a point where one would consider giving up DPS for increased armor or set bonuses? I'm getting to the point where I'll have to be deciding to either spend my DKP on say, the Ranger General's Chestguard or the Bloodsea Brigands Vest. The leather has higher DPS of course, but the Chestguard has increased armor and INT.
We know that mana won't be as much of a problem in 2.3, but is there a point where throwing on all leather and going all out DPS is going to hurt you over choosing some mail? Seems like an interesting argument especially in regards to the T5 set. There are better pieces to pick over some of the T5 gear (shoulders as an obvious instance), but the 4 piece set bonus of 5% haste on flurry could make it more worthwhile?
As always, if this has been discussed to death already just flame away because I deserve it. XD
As far as i know there is no actual difference between how offhand and mainhand WF are parsed meaning addon can't differiate them by that. Only way to separate would be to set damage line, not sure if any addon does that. If such addon exists then that line must be set by individual player.
I don't know if this has been discussed, but is there a point where one would consider giving up DPS for increased armor or set bonuses? I'm getting to the point where I'll have to be deciding to either spend my DKP on say, the Ranger General's Chestguard or the Bloodsea Brigands Vest. The leather has higher DPS of course, but the Chestguard has increased armor and INT.
We know that mana won't be as much of a problem in 2.3, but is there a point where throwing on all leather and going all out DPS is going to hurt you over choosing some mail? Seems like an interesting argument especially in regards to the T5 set. There are better pieces to pick over some of the T5 gear (shoulders as an obvious instance), but the 4 piece set bonus of 5% haste on flurry could make it more worthwhile?
As always, if this has been discussed to death already just flame away because I deserve it. XD
AEP values are for damage dealing, it does not consider any defensive or sustainable stats.
My recommendation would be to try out Yo simulator, there is option for 4-set T5 i believe. That should give you idea how valuable it is.
We know that mana won't be as much of a problem in 2.3, but is there a point where throwing on all leather and going all out DPS is going to hurt you over choosing some mail? Seems like an interesting argument especially in regards to the T5 set. There are better pieces to pick over some of the T5 gear (shoulders as an obvious instance), but the 4 piece set bonus of 5% haste on flurry could make it more worthwhile?
There's certainly some utility to those other items, you might consider just picking them up just to bank or carry for special situations, but there's enough top end shaman raiding with nothing but leather to illustrate that the armor and intellect on mail is really not a concern.
I once remember reading a post on the EU shaman forums where Snorkle posted something about attack speed "sweet spots", I can't really remember much about it except that when you had a certain attack speed you would hit a "sweet spot" and this would be really good somehow. After picking up some haste gear I was just thinking about it and wondered why nothing like this was in the first post, is there anything to it?
11/08/07, 10:29 AM
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