[top] (52+50)/50 * 1 * HRaep

Droo · 11/08/07, 7:09 PM

Do we have any hard numbers on how much Syphon of the Nathrezim procs affect raid dps by consuming improved shadowbolt charges? It's a big upgrade from my gladiator weapon clearly, but if it's going to be knocking out large amounts of dps from other sources than I'll just have to annoy warlocks with it on trash.

tchyk · 11/08/07, 7:17 PM

Over time I've read through most of this forum, but I can't remember anyone stating whether or not Hand of Justice was still viable.

I have heard its a 1.33% proc at lvl 70 with 20 attack power. Given that the extra swing can proc WF & WF can proc the extra swing, wouldn't that be worth a fair amount of AEP?

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=11815&xml

Although the counter-argument would be that Rogues' sword spec increases in dps because of the speed of their off-hand and the attack procing the main hand and we stack slow weapons so a low chance to proc wouldn't happen very often?

300 swings x 1.33% proc rate = 4 extra attacks. Guess if I do the math it doesn't sound as awesome as it was on my Warlord grind back when I was originally enhancement. Just wondering if anyone has done the math?

Malan · 11/08/07, 8:02 PM

Originally Posted by Paradox

Hey there.

I once remember reading a post on the EU shaman forums where Snorkle posted something about attack speed "sweet spots", I can't really remember much about it except that when you had a certain attack speed you would hit a "sweet spot" and this would be really good somehow. After picking up some haste gear I was just thinking about it and wondered why nothing like this was in the first post, is there anything to it?

Thanks.

Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond.

• Shalas · 11/08/07, 9:49 PM

Originally Posted by Paradox

I once remember reading a post on the EU shaman forums where Snorkle posted something about attack speed "sweet spots", I can't really remember much about it except that when you had a certain attack speed you would hit a "sweet spot" and this would be really good somehow. After picking up some haste gear I was just thinking about it and wondered why nothing like this was in the first post, is there anything to it?

Theoretically, the less time between WF cooling down and your next swing the better. A 1.5 second swing should be moderatly better than a 1.6 second swing (and vastly better than a 1.4 second swing) as a result. However, to the best of my knowledge the only testing that's been done was to see if going under 1.5 speed was enough of a problem to care (which it isn't). Flurry means that you won't actually be sitting in the sweet spot all of the time anyway. If you're up to spending a huge amount of time testing it, that'd be awesome, though.

Severjanin · 11/09/07, 1:27 AM

Here's the really, really old post you're looking for Paradox. It can be found in the sticky Informative and useful Shaman threads in the eu forums.

Originally Posted by Snorkle

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/984/untitledex3.jpg

A is the point where we are about to hit 1.50 speed, B is the point immediatelly after. As you see, the graphic is not continuous because of the immediate drop in DPS. C is the point at which your DPS is decent again (1.39 in case of a starting speed of 1.51).

Also, here are the "sweet spots" as you named them, for a few different starting speeds, as well as how much DPS you lose as you hit the danger line (in percentage):

Init.Speed - sweet spot - dps lost as you cross the danger line

1.50 - N/A - 0%
1.51 - 1.39 - 8%
1.52 - 1.40 - 7.8%
1.53 - 1.41 - 7.1%
1.54 - 1.43 - 5.6%
1.55 - 1.43 - 5.1%
1.56 - 1.44 - 4.8%
1.57 - 1.45 - 4.1%
1.58 - 1.46 - 3.4%
1.59 - 1.47 - 2.7%
1.60 - 1.48 - 2.0%
1.61 - 1.49 - 1.3%
1.62 - 1.50* - 0.6%
1.63 - N/A - 0%

* - rounding problems >_<...

Also, I've had a great idea about how to look at disphasement. I'm gonna make something about it tonight, for now I'm bloated (family lunch - boring, but lots of food) and can't think straight, need some digestion time. My idea is simple: assuming the normal mainhand speeds of 2.7 and 2.6, for each common offhand speed (2.2,2.4,2.5,2.6) check the average disphasement (distance between an offhand swing and the next mainhand swing), and with this calculate how many mainhand swings in average will be eaten by the offhand. To make it more "realistic" I just assume the chance that one offhand swing proccs wf ASSUMING that swing is not in the WF cooldown. Empirically it really seems to point out that 2.6/2.6 is BETTER than 2.7/2.6. Omg blizzard, do something :P this is getting ridiculous!

Snorkle

Mengus · 11/09/07, 4:23 AM

I'm in the same boat when it comes to leather vs mail... It'd be nice to have some int, as well as more armor, but the leather gear is so compelling.

At the moment, I'm putting serious consideration into buying pieces of leather gear from 2.3 badge rewards:

Gloves
Pants
Bracers
Belt

And I already have a leather BP, and a mail helm with no int.... Leaving me with a whopping one item with INT, T4 shoulders (which I'd replace with Shoulders of the Stranger in a heartbeat).

Yet, with the 2.3 changes, I think I may end up going this route. I'm actually still torn between the leather gloves and the mail ones. My current AEP values the mail ones a tiny bit more, but the gloves + pants yields almost 5% haste, when I currently have none.

Disquette · 11/09/07, 5:39 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond.

I'm sorry to post a response that is pure fluff, but Malan, I do believe you would have been able to be a writer for Fawlty Towers or Black Adder, having constructed such a response as quoted above.

In fact, this seems sigworthy if I can fit it in...

Disquette · 11/09/07, 6:18 AM

Originally Posted by Rob

This is a bit confusing/incorrect. I'd rewrite it as:

In order to convert your Expertise Rating into AEP for purposes of comparison, you first need to sum up the expertise rating across all your items, divide by 15.8, take the floor, and multiply by 15.8 again. This gives you a "hit rating" equivalency.

But expertise, unlike hit rating, also effects the yellow damage from special attacks in addition to the white damage from auto-attacks. To correct for this, you need to multiply by the ratio of melee damage to white damage, or (Yellow % of damage + White % of damage)/(White % of damage). If we assume that shocks/searing totem are 10% of damage and white damage is 50% of damage, then this ratio is (40+50)/50 = 1.8.

Finally, we must multiply by the AEP of 1 hit rating, to convert our "hit rating" equivalency into AEP.

As an example of these calculations, if I have 47 Expertise Rating on all my items, and a hit AEP of 1.6, that equals Floor(47/15.8) * 15.8 * 1.8 * 1.6 AEP = Floor(2.97) * 15.8 * 1.8 * 1.6 AEP = 2 * 15.8 * 1.8 * 1.6 AEP = 91.008 AEP.

Ok, so I was thinking about this a bit, going back to our conversation about the 1 roll vs 2 roll system for white attacks vs yellow attacks, and how the crit% stays constant with yellow attacks as expertise changes, but the crit% decreases for white attacks as expertise rises.

We already have Hit Rating AEP accounting for this decrease in white crit % (since hit rating only accounts for white attacks, where we're not going to get any more crits). So, we now need to revalue the yellow portion of the expertise effect based on the extra crits we're going to get thanks to the 2 roll system.

clear as mud?

In algebraic terms...

W = Total White damage%
Y = Yellow damage%
C = Melee Crit %
ER = Expertise Rating
HRaep = Hit Rating AEP

The current formula reads as:
(Yellow % of damage + White % of damage)/(White % of damage) * Expertise Rating * Hit AEP
=
[(Y + W) / W] * ER * HRaep

The more-correct formula would then be:
(Y*1+C + W / W) * ER * HRaep

This just makes sense given the 2 roll and 1 roll systems.

Assume a 50/50 white damage to yellow damage breakdown:
If I land 3% more white attacks thanks to expertise, that's the same as 3% more white attacks thanks to hit rating because none will be crits. ER(w) = 1HRaep

If I'm landing 3% more yellow attacks thanks to expertise, and 33% of them are going to be crits, I need to value this 33% more than the hit rating line above. ER(y) = 1HRaep * Crit%

So....
to the example given in the first place, with a 40yellow, 50white, 10shock breakdown, and a new term of "30% crit rate", I'd value 1 expertise rating as:
(Y*1+C + W / W) * ER * HRaep
= [(40*1.3 + 50) / 50 ] * 1 * HRaep

[top] (52+50)/50 * 1 * HRaep

(102/50) HRaep
= 2.04 HRaep
For me, I think I'll be doing this, and valuing Expertise Rating as 2*Hit Rating

This sits with my gut much better. Please let me know if I'm being dumb in my conceptualization (or even basic math!) with this post.

bestpike · 11/09/07, 7:08 AM

Originally Posted by Sebudai

I think shocks are closer to 8-9% in the best case scenario. That's not a whole lot. I average about 1350 dps through all of BT/Hyjal, and on the melee friendly fights between 1650-1850 dps. That number can definitely drop between 5-6%, and if you're not shocking every 6 seconds on the dot, it'll drop even lower. Regardless, elemental is definitely becoming more viable.

If Totemic Mastery is unnecessary in the Sunwell I might be tempted to try it out. Mana is going to be such a non-issue, I will be casting a shock and fire nova totem every cooldown for sure. At that point, talents like Concussion, Reverberation and Call of Flame might actually beat out Nature's Guidance. I doubt it, though. Those talents really are pretty terrible for PVE.

In 2.3 the factors that will favor elemental instead of resto as secondary tree are devastating:

1. Free spell damage increases shock dps
2. Convection talent becoming imba reducing the mana cost of earth shock to 128 from 181 with shamanistic focus procced (its -10% off base cost)
3. Free spell damage increasing searing totem by a lot, adding to that the Call of flame talent, we have a searing totem doing probably more than 150dps with the mage debuff. Not to mention the improved aoe abilities, fire nova and magma.
4. Reverberation talent, further increasing shock dps by 20%.
5. 10% less fire,frost,nature damage as a bonus.

The only thing i will really miss from resto is 3% in spells, capping the chance to hit in pvp, and the totem increased range.

Oh and some info: For some reason if Elemental focus procs and then Shamanistic focus procs, the elemental focus buff will be lost, overwritten by the shamanistic. Thus you cant get free shocks

. So if you go enhancement/elemental dont put a talent in elemental focus. Thats in PTR ofc, but i dont expect for it to be fixed/changed.

Illundai · 11/09/07, 8:07 AM

Originally Posted by Droo

Do we have any hard numbers on how much Syphon of the Nathrezim procs affect raid dps by consuming improved shadowbolt charges? It's a big upgrade from my gladiator weapon clearly, but if it's going to be knocking out large amounts of dps from other sources than I'll just have to annoy warlocks with it on trash.

Syphon of the Nathrezim does not consume Improved Shadow Bolt charges. I tested this a while back.

Atren · 11/09/07, 8:24 AM

One thing i dont get about weapon expertise is why is it divided by 15.8 instead of 3.95 as i thought conversion is 3.95 rating for 1 expertise? It kinda feels it has deen multiplied by 4 twice instead once? 15.8 Expertise rating, or in other words 4 expertise, might give 1% dodge/parry reduction. But that is 4 points, i dont see why would anything be done in 4 point jumps. I would more think it is 1 point expertise (not rating) for 0.25 reduction, or about 4 rating.

For example that rating mentioned where get 2.5 expetise, would not that be reduced to 2 expertise opposed to 0? And concerning example item mentioned in first paragraph, you get 10 expertise rating not 6.

Is this just to get better comparison with hit rating? Or what am i missing here?

EDIT: Small fixes :P

Malan · 11/09/07, 9:52 AM

Originally Posted by tchyk

300 swings x 1.33% proc rate = 4 extra attacks. Guess if I do the math it doesn't sound as awesome as it was on my Warlord grind back when I was originally enhancement. Just wondering if anyone has done the math?

With a 2.6 weapon those 300 swings represent 13 minutes of combat for 4 extra attacks - and I am not certain that the HoJ is able to proc WF, I thought that was fixed ages ago? Regardless, 4 white hits over 13 minutes doesn't sound like a reasonable DPS improvement over another trinket that would give AP or Crit bonuses.

Disquette - I don't understand what was funny.

Requesting a peer review of this post from yesterday about the Stonebreaker Totem. Need a yay/nay on it. Same with Disquette's post from above about the Expertise values.

Atren · 11/09/07, 10:13 AM

Ok, his formula is wrong due to messup with parenthis, real one should be based on his example:

(Y*(1+C)+ W) / W * ER * HRaep

I would say C feels too big effect here for actual intuition based feeling.

Edit: Cleared post a lot

Malan · 11/09/07, 10:16 AM

He meant to write that like this -
$<br /> \frac {Y \times (1 + C) + W}{W} \times \text {ER} \times \text {HR AEP}<br />$

If you look at the bottom of his post where he does an example you can see that he does the calculations correctly, he just typed out the formula in a confusing manner.

Raut · 11/09/07, 11:24 AM

Enhance OH options should be changed to include:

Fool's Bane - Items - World of Warcraft
The Decapitator - Items - World of Warcraft

2.3 changes. Hardly end-game, but removes the need for Al'ar or Arena to get decent OH weapons.

(Sorry if this is already mentioned, I couldn't find any on the last five or so pages)

Torrential · 11/09/07, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Illundai

Syphon of the Nathrezim does not consume Improved Shadow Bolt charges. I tested this a while back.

I honestly cannot remember where I saw it said that it did, or who said it...or why I think that.

But if it really does not eat the charges I'll have some happy warriors and enhance shaman...

Malan · 11/09/07, 11:51 AM

Why would your warriors care if it ate ISB?

@Raut - already noted in the OP from a few weeks ago.

Patch 2.3 Update - Decapitator and Fool's Bane from KZ have been made one-hand and non unique, which will significantly improve early OH choices. Zul'Aman will also feature at least one 2.6 speed fist OH.

Atren · 11/09/07, 11:53 AM

Ok, on the way home from work i had some chance to ponder about Disquette formula. I think it works, altough there are some near impossible cases it is wrong. Namely if crit is higher than hit then it is wrong.

Also reminder that it is single item value with no truncation. For real use for entire gear you need to sum up and divide by 3.95 (not 15.8 imo) and truncate (i hope that is right term). Then multiply it with 3.95 and use that value in ER place in Disquette formula. That should give you expertise total AEP value over your entire gear. Due to truncation for most accurate determination you need to do over your entire gear opposed by just adding pieces AEP together.

Malan, i think he means us and warriors wont get angry warlocks and shadow priests mob after us :P

EDIT: Fixed minor mistakes.

Disquette · 11/09/07, 12:30 PM

Sorry for the sloppiness last night - I'm glad the intent came through with the example. And you're correct that in the upside-down hit/crit case it will be wrong. I sure hope to be able to have that problem some day

Atren · 11/09/07, 1:33 PM

And then you will get it by debuff of -25% to hit or something

I would not be suprised if some boss had such ability actually.

Ilmatar · 11/09/07, 2:52 PM

Originally Posted by Atren

and truncate (i hope that is right term)

When you truncate a number, you are considering N digits of the fractional part of the real.

Pi truncated to 3 digits is 3.141.

No rounding is done, truncation is just chopping off the least significant digits. Floor rounds down, Ceil rounds up.

Useless tidbit: When casting a double to an int in C++, it will floor a negative value, and ceil a positive value. Use round() if you mean round, don't cast to an integer type.

Torrential · 11/09/07, 3:16 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Why would your warriors care if it ate ISB?

If it ate ISB they weren't going to use it. Now that we see it does not, they can use it.

Illundai · 11/09/07, 3:23 PM

Originally Posted by Atren

And then you will get it by debuff of -25% to hit or something

I would not be suprised if some boss had such ability actually.

Banshees in Hyjal. I do not approve of that curse -_-.

Toots Hepcat · 11/09/07, 3:27 PM

Accidental double post, Firefox has some bizarre keybindings at times.

Question: I am still elemental (guild needed some more ranged to push through the hump we were in and bring down Gruul, which we did). Tuesday obviously offers me a great opportunity to spec back to my first and only love, melee support.

However, I'm just loving the DPS I have right now. My elemental gear is nowhere near as good as my enhancement gear and my max dps is lower as a result (by about 10%). However, my average DPS, and my dps time, are much higher.

I'm guessing that this is due to the amount of melee movement in fights like Gruul's. I'm wondering if any of the elemental converts out there can tell me at what point of progression into the endgame content your lightning bolts started outpacing your windfury.

Toots Hepcat · 11/09/07, 3:39 PM

W/R to haste and weapon speed sweet spots:

Shamans weapon speeds are very dynamic. With Dragonmaw, dual mongoose, flurry, abacus and DST, your weapon speeds are going to fluctuate greatly and won't be staying at those speeds for very long. I can, for example, hit 1.08 when the Drakefist hits with flurry, Berzerking and Bloodlust. If I plan for it, I can do this once every ten minutes for 8s.

Which is the problems. Let's say there is a benefit to a particular weapon speed. How the heck are you going to gear so that you'll hit that speed -- exactly that speed -- for enough time that you'll be able to even record the benefit from entering the sweet spot?

I also think you'll discover that in every event, when weapon damage is flat, faster = better. These weapon speed "hot spots" would only affect the AMOUNT of increase from each % of haste.

Either way, I think Recount (or WWS, something) needs a new stat: average weapon speed, along with a graph of weapon speed fluctuations over time. I don't want to gear to it. I just think it would be cool.