• Disquette

Three things on my mind at the moment, for Malan et al currently...

1) Is there any objection to the slightly altered expertise rating stat weight? If not, could that be added to the derivation?

2) EDITED OUT - I just did the tests and saw that the sim does use a 2 roll system, and has the form for yellow damage crit rate:
[(Crit Rate * .944) - 3%] (crit rate times non-dodged, minus three for the level 73 boss effect). I left in this point just in case anyone read the pre-edit post.

3) After my little initial fit about twisting, I put the newer version of the mod up, and have watershield partially read for the 2.3 patch (busy weekend ahead of coding and testing). Would it be possible to link the new address of the mod in place of the old one in the first post? The only difference is that the last 4 digits are 9729 (full address is in my sig).

 

◊ Rob

Yeah, good point. Sloppiness on my part.

Disquette, your analysis sounds good.

To sum it up, I think we get two relevant equations:

AEP(1 ER) ~= [(1+C)Y + W]/W * AEP(1 HR) ~= 2*AEP(HR)

AEP(Sum(ER)) = Floor(Sum(ER)/3.95)*3.95*AEP(1 ER) ~= Floor(Sum(ER)/3.95)*8*AEP(HR)

 

• Disquette

Yah, hopefully Yo! will update the sim when he returns, then we won't have to calculate expertise at all as a function of Crit% and HitAEP, it'll just come out of the sim like any other number.

 

◊ Rob

Yeah, we definitely would prefer that to anything else. But hopefully this precursor work will at least be useful for him to figure out how he will calculate the AEP, using a floor or whatever...

I suppose the easiest thing to do that gives somewhat realistic results would be to take the smallest expertise rating chunk that gives N expertise and the largest chunk that also gives N expertise and average across those two values.

 

Imperator

Ok, my math might be off, but are the new items from the badges seriously going to be better than T5 gear?

I was looking at the Vestments of Hibernation which (with my math) worked out to 233.2 AEP if we're valuing armor penetration at .28. Compare that to the T5 chest which works out to 228.8 if you slot in 3 - +8 Str gems.

I was getting the same results for Shallow Grave Trousers > T5 legs.

 

Atren

Since neither of them have any sockets you going to need to get your metagem requirements elsewhere. Concerning T5 breast i would go for socket bonus actually with 8 str, 4 str 4 crit and 4 str 6 stam. It would give 3 reds, 1 blue and 1 yellow for any metagem you want.

 

• Disquette

I'm going to be buying 3 pieces of gear with badges if nothing else changes...

veteran's linked bracers -> master assasin's wristwraps (35% aep upgrade iirc)

veteran's linked sabatons -> nyn'jah's tabi boots (40% aep upgrade iirc)

cataclysm legplates -> shallow-grave trousers (11% aep upgrade)

 

Mengus

Just thought I'd chime in with my Badge replacements, and ask some input of the community.

My one remaining dilema remains:

Gloves: T4 -> Trickster's Stickyfingers OR Gauntlets of Sniping

Some folks have already mentioned the benefit of having some sockets available, which is where the Gauntlets of Sniping have an advantage. On the otherhand, the Leather gloves have HASTE, which I currently lack (aside from the new badge pants). We're talking an AEP difference (for me) of @ 1. I should be able to manage to support my RED regardless, but what are the thoughts on this glove dilema in general... Haste seems compelling, even though from an AEP standpoint, I'm not really gaining anything either way.

As for the others I'll be replacing:

Pants: Midnight Leguards -> Shallow Grave Trousers
Bracers: Veteran's Linked Bracers -> Master Assassin Wristwraps
Belt: Veteran's Linked/Girdle of Death Dealer -> Waistguard of the Great Beast
Boots: Fiend Slayer Boots -> Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots

The great thing for me, is that I have a crap ton of gear that I'm holding on to in case my AEP weights change a bit, but the new gear is THAT much better than the T4/Kara stuff, that I can turn all that into Void Crystals...

 

Mengus

Keep in mind that those vestments are sadly, Druid only. Otherwise I'd be wearing them (; I actually have both Shadowprowler's and BP of the Conniver to use currently.

But yeah, the new badge loot and ZA stuff is @T5 or just under in terms of item budget, but keep in mind there are no set bonuses. Our BPs tend to suck anyway, as blizzard hates us (;


EDIT: Well, per below, looks like the latest incarnation is no longer druid only, hooray!

 

Devnex

This appears to be no longer the case. Although I've not been able to check the actual item lately on the PTR the "Class: Druid" is missing from the latest wowhead datamine.

 

Weem

I just checked on the PTR and it is no longer for Druids only. I updated all the spreadsheets to include them and to also include the Brooch of Deftness even though it seems to be an inferior item to other just as easily available items. I also put all the new badge loots in the "Pre-Raid" spreadsheet as they weren't discernible on Wowhead last I had checked.

 

Yo!

Sorry to type it but I wont be physicaly able to update sim anytime soon though I would love to.

 

• Disquette

No worries, as you can see we have a pretty good interim formula. Really glad to see you posting again :-)

 

Mengus

For AEP value % increase, are you performing the following:

New Item = N
Old Item = O

( N / O - 1) * 100 or vice versa?

 

• Disquette

If the bracers were 98 for the old, and 140 for the new, it's (140 - 98) / 98 = 42/98 = 43%

(numbers made up, just to illustrate what I was doing).

I actually also looked at the absolute aep difference, and divided it by the badge cost, so that I knew which to get first. With the bracers i got 1.13 AEP / badge, the pants were .20aep/badge, and the boots were 1.07 / badge, so I'll be getting bracers then boots then pants.

 

Atren

Weem, few things:

1. I would add Bands of the Celestial Archer - Items - World of Warcraft to wrist in mid level at least.
2. Can shamans make leather goggles as i seem to recall restrictions? I am not engineer myself.

 

tokageroh

There is much controversy over this subject so im going to provide some math so that others may draw conclusions.

First some Constants:
Earth shock is at 675 dmg base
Flame shock is at 797 dmg base (377 initial + 420 spread over 4 ticks every 3 secs)
Frost shock is at 658 dmg base
6% average spell crit base
700 spell dmg gained from patch 2.3 (2300 ap)
10 sec shock rotations with the reverberation talent
12 secs rotations w/o it

Debuffs put on mobs:
Curse of elements 10% base 13% with talents (fire and frost only)
Misery 5% more spell damage
Scorch 15% more damage (fire only)
Winters chill 10% spell crit (frost only) (will assume the same as 10% more damage)

Bonus damage for X from debuffs:
Earth shock - 1.26 ( for 2 hits with stormstrike + misery)
Flame shock - 1.36 ( coe/maladiction + misery + scorch)
Frost shock - 1.30 (coe/maladiction + misery + winters chill)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Lets start off with The elemental devastation talent.
current understanding and math shows this:

Flame shock /earth shock rotation
(9%/10secs) * (6% crit chance / time {180 secs this time}) = .92% crit chance constant

But consider this a Flame shock / Frost shock rotation (includes winters chill)
(9%/10 secs) * (16% crit chance / 180 secs) = .295
(9%/10 secs) * (6% crit chance / 180 secs) = .092
(.295 + .092) / 2 = 1.75% constant crit gained

A frost shock only rotation:
(9%/5 secs) * (16% crit chance / 180 secs ) = 5.18% constant crit gained

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The next section will compare Ele/Enh shamans shocks and shock rotations with winters chill


Earth shock only (pre 2.3):
(675 / 6) * 1.26 = 141.75 dps (no reverb/concussion)
((675 * 1.05) / 5) * 1.26 = 178.6 (inc reverb/concussion)
Earth shock only (post 2.3):
(((700 * .428) + 675) /6 ) * 1.26 = 204.66 dps (no reverb/concussion)
(((700 * .428) + (675 * 1.05)) /5 ) * 1.26 = 254.10 dps (inc reverb/concussion)

Flame shock only (pre 2.3):
(587 / 6) * 1.36 = 133.05 dps ( 587 dmg due to loss of 2 ticks of the dot effect) (no reverb/concussion)
((482* 1.05) / 5) * 1.36 = 137.65 (482 dmg due to loss of 3 ticks of the dot effect) (inc reverb/concussion)
Flame shock only (post 2.3):
(((700 * .67) + 587) /6) * 1.36 = 239.36 dps (no reverb/concussion)
(((700 * .67) + (482 * 1.05)) /5) * 1.36 = 265.22 dps (inc reverb/concussion)

Frost shock only (pre 2.3):
(658 /6) * 1.30 = 142.56 dps (no reverb/concussion)
((658 * 1.05) /5) * 1.30 = 179.63 dps (inc reverb/concussion)
Frost shock only (post 2.3):
(((700 * .428)+ 658) /6) * 1.30 = 207.48 (no reverb/concussion)
(((700 * .428)+ (658*1.05)) /5) * 1.30 = 257.53 dps (inc reverb/concussion)


****** Will add more in the morning ********

 

Pitbuller

"Winters chill 10% spell crit (frost only) (will assume the same as 10% more damage)"
If you dont want go 31/30/0 spec spell crit modifier is only 150%.

 

Mengus

Nope, limited to the mail only goggles, though, 3 T5 ish helms for ele, enh, resto aren't bad.

 

Yo!

"700 spell dmg gained from patch 2.3 (2300 ap)" is gear dependant - some will gain over1000

Please explain where your formulas come from.
AFAIK the proper formula is 9%*(1-(1-0.06)^(10/5)) for earth/fire rotation with -1s talent:
There are 2 shocks in 10 s period each with 0.94 chance not to crit that is 0.8836 total chance not to crit or 0.1164 chance to crit in any 10 sec period yelding 1.05% "crit chance constant"
For flame/frost it becomes 9%*(1-0.94*0.84)= 1.89%,
Frost/frost -> 9%*(1-(1-0.16)^(10/5)) = 2.65% (loosing badly to 3% melee and spell hit from resto tree).
There is aditional big assumption (affecting your last section too) that one is able to shock on every cooldown which is not possible because of the GCD overlaping with SS sometimes and abilities that are used with SR such as trinket activation, orc/troll racial, potion, drums... On top of that there is human reaction time and net lag. And there is spell miss/resistance system in place that you did not include. These are some of the reasons why no one is achieving close to 200 dps now and no one will achive 300 dps post 2.3 with shocks only. In fact average dps from shocks on wws is about 50-70.

Here are pure theorycraft ideas for elemental devastation boost:
Shaman version of Darkmoon card stacking only spell crit on melee & spell non-crits
Increase spell crit on melee crit instead of mana cost reduction for our new talent
Searing totem critical shots counting as shaman's
FT weapon imbue crits triggering it

 

Wolflord

Furthering the problem: in any resonable talent build you will only be able to take 2/3 Elemental Devestation. And for any reasonable amount of leather gear youll be looking at a much lower spell crit rate, mine is below 4.2%.

Despite all that I am itching to go back to suicide spec for a few weeks.

 

Gehenna

In addition, it would be hard to justify purchasing 3/3 elemental devistation. Where would your third point come from?

Tiers 6-9 are all basically requisites, and to even get 2/3 you would be taking 1 point out of imp weapon totems.

Although i like the idea, you must account for these factors aswell.

Edit: you beat me wolf.

 

Weem

Spreadsheets have been updated. Can't believe I missed those bracers! I also wasn't aware about the restrictions on the goggles (thanks Mengus on the confirmation). Thank you for bringing both of those to my attention.

 

tokageroh

The whole point of my theorycrafting was to prove a point that under perfect conditions ele/enhance is viable. Also proving that there was a calculation that was not included in previous (winters chill). Which may change up the best shock rotation. From Flame/Earth shocks to Flame/Frost or just Frost only.

The formulas i was using was essentially the same as on the original post from what i could gather. Some things i was not aware of in the formulas so i omitted them.

 

Malan

Even if you aren't riding the threat threshold right now, we've said time and time again that if you start using Frost Shock you will be right on that tank's ass, if not over the line. What fight from KZ to T6 content is going to allow you such "perfect conditions" to make that build viable? Does one fight with perfect conditions justify the other 20 or so that don't?

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06