Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 189

Sebudai · 11/11/07, 4:00 PM

Haha, Frost Shock is definitely not a viable option for a shaman's shock rotation.

tokageroh · 11/11/07, 4:27 PM

Even if you aren't riding the threat threshold right now, we've said time and time again that if you start using Frost Shock you will be right on that tank's ass, if not over the line. What fight from KZ to T6 content is going to allow you such "perfect conditions" to make that build viable? Does one fight with perfect conditions justify the other 20 or so that don't?

When it comes to threat the tanks we have are really good (either that or i cant generate enough threat after layen down my totems). I think the only fight that might make the build viable would be tidewalker, but just barely.

Originally Posted by Sebudai

Haha, Frost Shock is definitely not a viable option for a shaman's
shock rotation.

Tell that to my class leader whos suicide spec...... i do more dmg then him but he still goes on about how horrible my dmg is *sigh*

Rob · 11/11/07, 4:29 PM

I think the only fight that might make the build viable would be tidewalker, but just barely.

Tidewalker has a worse threat-limiting component than anything besides Hydross in SSC/TK as far as I know... so I'd have to disagree there.

Malan · 11/11/07, 4:37 PM

I just looked up how Omen/Threat handles Frost Shock and its listed as a 2x modifier for threat, so Dmg done x 2. So again, probably not something you want to be doing every 6 seconds. Even if you're only getting a low 529 frost shock that equates to (529 x 2)/6 = 176 TPS before your salv modifier. Obviously more once you factor in spell damage.

aroma · 11/11/07, 5:02 PM

Originally Posted by Rob

Tidewalker has a worse threat-limiting component than anything besides Hydross in SSC/TK as far as I know... so I'd have to disagree there.

We have a feral druid tanking Tidewalker and it's pretty much impossible to pull aggro from him, even without salvation. Warriors seem to have a much harder time tanking this encounter, so if you have a warrior tank you might be right.

Sebudai · 11/11/07, 5:46 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

I just looked up how Omen/Threat handles Frost Shock and its listed as a 2x modifier for threat, so Dmg done x 2. So again, probably not something you want to be doing every 6 seconds. Even if you're only getting a low 529 frost shock that equates to (529 x 2)/6 = 176 TPS before your salv modifier. Obviously more once you factor in spell damage.

Omen might be underestimating by quite a bit. I remember old Earth Shock being a 350% modifier. It's possible that they changed it when they moved the threat bonus to Frost Shock, but probably worth testing.

Gehenna · 11/11/07, 9:05 PM

on many fights, under certain conditions (CoE, Ice Mage, Nature Damage caster) i rotate frost shock and flame shock with no agro problems; however, frost shocking on 5 second intervals would most likely change that.

Illundai · 11/11/07, 10:18 PM

With my aggro, I cannot fathom one fight in the whole game where I can just happily frost shock. Akama excluded for obvious reasons. I'd just pull aggro, there is no way in hell I can Frost Shock on every cooldown. I sometimes end up using Frost Shock on Mother Shahraz when she decided to be frost vulnerable, but hey I'm in resist gear on that fight anyhow, it'd surprise me if I could pull aggro on that -_-.

Shabadu · 11/11/07, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by Illundai

I sometimes end up using Frost Shock on Mother Shahraz when she decided to be frost vulnerable, but hey I'm in resist gear on that fight anyhow, it'd surprise me if I could pull aggro on that -_-.

Pretty much the only reason to frost shock ever right here. Other than Illidan parasites or demons.

Disquette · 11/12/07, 12:32 AM

Alrighty, mod updated for watershield. I know it's not as fancy as what we'd talked about, but after using a few different options, it seems the most effective and simple. Please let me know about any bugs. You can use it pre 2.3, but it will make the most sense when it comes out.

PS, many thanks to Rava about this. He knows why :-)

Malan · 11/12/07, 12:43 AM

Updated your link on the first post and I'll get to some of the other stuff to update on Monday.

Disquette · 11/12/07, 1:06 AM

Thanks a bunch! By the way, one of the reasons I settled on the WS graphic that I did was your input on that other thread - there should be no doubt when you need to recast it, and hopefully it's relatively unobtrusive (yet visible, for pre-pulls) when you're at full mana but it's not active.

Bragor · 11/12/07, 2:23 AM

Never frostshocked seeing that the added threat ain't good to my personnel health & also having earthshock on a higher Damge/Mana ratio puts frostshock on the last of my dps cycle if it ever gets there.

You can also add having a ghoul running after ya in MH guys to the few exceptions <== Still remembers kitting one all over the place until a druid tank took it off him. Think it was for about 40 seconds worth of running with an angry shaman screaming at the tanks all the time.

tufy · 11/12/07, 2:28 AM

Originally Posted by Bragor

Never frostshocked seeing that the added threat ain't good to my personnel health & also having earthshock on a higher Damge/Mana ratio puts frostshock on the last of my dps cycle if it ever gets there.

You can also add having a ghoul running after ya in MH guys to the few exceptions <== Still remembers kitting one all over the place until a druid tank took it off him. Think it was for about 40 seconds worth of running with an angry shaman screaming at the tanks all the time.

You only got chased by ONE Ghoul? I get that all the time, thanks to allmighty Chain Lightning

Anyway. problem with Earth Shock imo is burning Storm Strike charges. Since Frost Shock generates extra threat, that leaves Enhancement Shamans with Flame Shock if they want to maximize the raid damage. Unfortunately, that also lowers their own personal DPS. Meh, SS should have been 12s permanent 10% increase for nature and it would have been fine.

Atren · 11/12/07, 2:43 AM

Flame Shock is not weaker damage than other shocks, especially after 2.3 when more fire mages around with mage damage tax removal. And unless your elemental shaman (or in this case you :P) is moving around then by time your shock cooldown is over you should be able to fire Earth Shock without taking charge.

Skiace · 11/12/07, 2:46 AM

Originally Posted by Disquette

Alrighty, mod updated for watershield. I know it's not as fancy as what we'd talked about, but after using a few different options, it seems the most effective and simple. Please let me know about any bugs. You can use it pre 2.3, but it will make the most sense when it comes out.

PS, many thanks to Rava about this. He knows why :-)

I just tried it out, and I can't get rid of the water shield bar. I set wshieldbox to off, wshieldbar to off, and wsalpha to 0, and the bar still shows up. Am I missing something?

panny · 11/12/07, 3:22 AM

Originally Posted by tufy

You only got chased by ONE Ghoul? I get that all the time, thanks to allmighty Chain Lightning

Anyway. problem with Earth Shock imo is burning Storm Strike charges. Since Frost Shock generates extra threat, that leaves Enhancement Shamans with Flame Shock if they want to maximize the raid damage. Unfortunately, that also lowers their own personal DPS. Meh, SS should have been 12s permanent 10% increase for nature and it would have been fine.

With either CoE or Imp. Scorch, Flame Shock is better DPS than Earth Shock, even if Stormstrike is up. And it's more reliable that you'll get the damage debuff effects too.

Shakkha · 11/12/07, 6:35 AM

Originally Posted by Gehenna

on many fights, under certain conditions (CoE, Ice Mage, Nature Damage caster) i rotate frost shock and flame shock with no agro problems; however, frost shocking on 5 second intervals would most likely change that.

Question is, why are your mage Frost Spec for anything else than PvP ?

To make that somewhat viable, you'd need a shitty spec mage, a warlock gimping his damage by using CoE, as at least up to next patch all the mages are most likely to be arcane, so just one lock doing CoS for them and the locks is enough, by having someone CoEing for your dumb forst mage and your frostshock maniac shaman, you're losing his damage from coa or cod which would be largely superior to the damage bonus of frost shock; and a enhancement shaman with an extremely non versatile spec.

So yeah, in some limited situation, with 2 other classes gimping their damage, through pvp spec and loss of curse damage, an enhancement shaman can get a slight dps upgrade! I'm not really impressed!

Raut · 11/12/07, 9:55 AM

(Sorry for the redundant linking of the two Kara weapons, Malan. I just checked the links and the last pages of text.)

2.x/2.y Weapon Speed Combinations
A frequently asked question is how to wield weapons with differing speeds but similar DPS values, such as using a Rising Tide and a Syphon - is it better to put one weapon in the main/off hand over the other? Simulation results indicate that it makes no difference which hand the slower weapon is wielded in. It appears that in general, a 2.x/2.y = 2.y/2.x.

I do not completely agree. I've been trying to prove this with math, but as many others, the concept of dealing with time and two variables affecting each other has made me give up making this a final function. Instead I'll try to explain this in layman terms(since it's the best I can do).

My theory: You want the slowest weapon in OH due to it silencing the MH less. For lesser speed differences, like 2.6 vs. 2.7, the added damage from hitting harder with MH is lost due to OH silencing MH more often. I have no theory on which speed range this includes as a 2.2 speed MH will lose a lot of damage in SS and WF, but a 2.2 OH will silence the MH a lot(thus removing MH WF procs).

I did some sims with Yo! to have some empirical "proof" to point to:

Yo! run with default values, but 1000 hours, 1550 AP, haste set at 0% and both weapons set at 97.5 DPS. First value MH speed, second OH, last DPS:

>2.6,2.2 - 899
>2.2,2.6 - 899
>2.8,2.2 - 909
>2.2,2.8 - 908

Worst/best case speed scenario. Does not support my theory.

>2.6,2.6 - 920
>2.6,2.7 - 925
>2.7,2.6 - 924
>2.6,2.8 - 928
>2.8,2.6 - 930
>2.7,2.8 - 933
>2.8,2.7 - 935
>2.8,2.8 - 940

Ad hoc theory: The 2.8 swing seems to be a kind of sweet-spot most likely caused by the added damage from SS and WF-procs surpassing the missing WF swings cause by added OH silence.

I ran most of these test three or four times to see the DPS span, but nothing major came up. I don't think the guide should be updated with the table above, but maybe something better than MH speed == OH speed? If you were able to modify the swing timer on a blank weapon with the correct stats, you would pick 2.8 as speed(as it is the current max).

This theory(with it's self-destructing ad-hoc addition) may be just fluff in the grand picture as the following shows:

>2.6,2.6(+50AP) - 931

50 AP is not a lot and by using two 2.6 weapons over Syphon of the Nathrezim, you should be able to match or surpass the DPS, but 50+ AP does not scale. The 2.8 speed will. It is less total swings in a silence window and higher SS and WF strikes.

Once again, sorry if this has been brought up(as I am sure it has), but the 180+ pages are close to impossible to parse all at once. I'm not sure if any of this should affect the guide any more than the "slow is good" part that is mentioned already. What do you think?

Malan · 11/12/07, 9:56 AM

Since there were no objections I have updated the Stonebreaker derivation as per this post.

Disquette - I'm not really understanding how you are proposing that I alter the Expertise AEP section.

Deathmvp · 11/12/07, 10:48 AM

I have been reading this form for a long time and I want to say it is the best for info.

I do have 2 question with the 30% of ap equaling spell damage and healing though.

1) since you will get 30% more damage on your totems and shock would that make Potance (20 sts or 40 ap =12 damage and heal) better then crusader your you damage out out?

2)Unless I am reading it wrong that change will make str and attack power worth more and I will have to add like a extra .1 on the stat weight right?

Aezoc · 11/12/07, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Skiace

I just tried it out, and I can't get rid of the water shield bar. I set wshieldbox to off, wshieldbar to off, and wsalpha to 0, and the bar still shows up. Am I missing something?

Similar problem here. Setting alpha to 0 does work, but only until I recast water shield, at which point it displays again. It seems to be ignoring the wshieldbar setting.

Gehenna · 11/12/07, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by Shakkha

Question is, why are your mage Frost Spec for anything else than PvP ?

To make that somewhat viable, you'd need a shitty spec mage, a warlock gimping his damage by using CoE, as at least up to next patch all the mages are most likely to be arcane, so just one lock doing CoS for them and the locks is enough, by having someone CoEing for your dumb forst mage and your frostshock maniac shaman, you're losing his damage from coa or cod which would be largely superior to the damage bonus of frost shock; and a enhancement shaman with an extremely non versatile spec.

So yeah, in some limited situation, with 2 other classes gimping their damage, through pvp spec and loss of curse damage, an enhancement shaman can get a slight dps upgrade! I'm not really impressed!

Well Shakka, I've recently joined a new guild; however, I've often played through raid content with PvP specced people. This includes frost mages, and although they may be "gimping" their overall damage doing so, they are present on the raid non-the-less.

In addition, I often raid with 0/21/40 warlocks who typically keep up curse of elements on the raids targets, whether this "gimps" their damage or not, I am not aware of. I was always under the impression that having a non-affliction warlock on a raid keeping up CoE against a raid target when on average we'll say 3 people can take advantage of it was well within the spectrum of useful.

In my scenario, I gave these variables, if I am going to keep up a shock rotation of flame shock, every other 6 seconds could place me stealing a stormstrike counter from an elemental shaman (if present) or, take advantage of the debuffs accordingly.

I am confident the choice in these situations is not only viable, but optimal.

I'm not implying that frost shock is worth a raid creating this situation, just saying that it does occure withing the world of warcraft.

Furthermore, i wish that enhancement/elemental was viable, and do plan to test it for personal use after 2.3.

Wolflord · 11/12/07, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Gehenna

Furthermore, i wish that enhancement/elemental was viable, and do plan to test it for personal use after 2.3.

Enh/elem is and always has been viable, it just wasnt, and probably still isnt, optimal. Personally though I feel that the gap has closed enough to tempt me back to it, as i feel it is a lot of fun.

Disquette · 11/12/07, 11:44 AM

Yuck, very sorry. Please try the updated mod version (done this AM, added additional checks to respect the wshieldbar toggle).