My guild officers just suggested that our two enhance shamans should use nightfall for the casters. Would the dps that I lose from using nightfall in single target fights be worth the nightfall proc? I have pretty decent enhancement gear with around 200 hitrating which will be wasted wielding a 2hander.
Yes, remove all your +Hit gems. Hit is not nearly as important as we thought.
I'll be editing the original post a bit later when I have more time.
But at what +hit rating should one do this? I read someone saying the run with 120 hit, some with 190, some with 250. I suppose im just looking for a minimum amount of +hit that a raider should have before focusing on other stats.
I understand that its a toss up to some degree, but surely there's a line where you are missing so much that your WF isn't proccing enough, right? or where your +hit is so low that you hit your Crit cap?
My guild officers just suggested that our two enhance shamans should use nightfall for the casters. Would the dps that I lose from using nightfall in single target fights be worth the nightfall proc? I have pretty decent enhancement gear with around 200 hitrating which will be wasted wielding a 2hander.
Uhh, I don't think that the proc will be enough to balance out the fact that that axe does less DPS than a one-hander... but I don't have definitive math to prove that. You'd need to figure out the PPM on it. But if white damage is about 50% of your DPS, losing your OH means you're giving up at least 1/3 * 50% = 16.7% of damage, plus damage lost from keeping up UR for you and your group, plus the fact that this is only 2/3 of the DPS of a good MH, plus the fact this has 0 AP/crit/hit on it... I just can't see it working.
Originally Posted by Acks
But at what +hit rating should one do this? I read someone saying the run with 120 hit, some with 190, some with 250. I suppose im just looking for a minimum amount of +hit that a raider should have before focusing on other stats.
I understand that its a toss up to some degree, but surely there's a line where you are missing so much that your WF isn't proccing enough, right? or where your +hit is so low that you hit your Crit cap?
Dear lord, try actually carefully reading the first page and/or previous two pages of the thread...
So, finally got the Ashtongue Talisman of Vision, and while the energy surge (110 mana gain on lhw or lb) seems to be actually going off at 10% the power surge (ap bonus on ss) is well, definately not 50%.
Unfortunately eu servers just came down so I haven't had time to do more testing but from what I have so far of 210 stormstrikes which landed (so ignoring dodge/parry) 168 caused a power surge. This seems within acceptable distance for each weapon having a 50% chance to proc on ss, but I didn't have time to see if single wielding would result in much nearer 50% total procs or not.
As it is it seems including dodges (but not parries, lets hit the raid mobs from behind) the total uptime for the power surge will be ~75% and the trinket will be worth (275*0.75) 206 static AP, far higher than the expected of ~138AP.
I would love to see more data from anyone else who has this trinket, and will check to see if it is 50% with only 1 weapon equipped once servers are up tomorrow.
But at what +hit rating should one do this? I read someone saying the run with 120 hit, some with 190, some with 250. I suppose im just looking for a minimum amount of +hit that a raider should have before focusing on other stats.
I understand that its a toss up to some degree, but surely there's a line where you are missing so much that your WF isn't proccing enough, right? or where your +hit is so low that you hit your Crit cap?
I don't think we know a definitive answer to this. Well, other than that which either Stigmata or Sebudai offered earlier (I'm sorry I forget which, and I'm not finding it with the search function) - get gear that are upgrades. They'll often come with hit. If it's not that big an upgrade that you can tell if it is or not, it's probably best to let a guildy get the item for whom it would be a clear upgrade.
I can't seem to decide between abacus and hourglass. Currently I sit around 24.5% crit, 1520 ap, and 19.5% hit with abacus on =\. (trying not to derail your current topic, but you are talking trinkets!)
My guild officers just suggested that our two enhance shamans should use nightfall for the casters. Would the dps that I lose from using nightfall in single target fights be worth the nightfall proc? I have pretty decent enhancement gear with around 200 hitrating which will be wasted wielding a 2hander.
WF + Autoattack + Stormstrike is about 90% of a Enh Shaman's damage. By ditching the OH, you lose about 25-30% of that (down one third, but autoattack effectivly gains 5-10% hit and WF procs stop being eaten by the OH). In addition, your weapon is 20-30 DPS lower than it would otherwise be. As an asspull guess, I don't see a damage loss of 25% as unreasonable. If you have ten casters, each one needs to do 2-3% more damage from Nightfall to break even, which requires 20% uptime. WoWHead comments say it's about a 12% proc rate. With 80% Flurry uptime (and assuming WF/SS can proc it), you'd get about 30% uptime -- 50% higher than needed to break even with my rough guess of damage loss (or break even with only 7 casters, which is far more realistic). In addition, you'd be moving damage away from a character with significant aggro issues to ones that have fewer problems, and making the shadow priests return more mana. The second shaman would only add about 20% uptime though, so both using it at the same time probably isn't worth it.
The UR issues means it probably isn't worth messing around with, but the proc really is ridiculous enough that Nightfall isn't an entirely terrible idea.
That seems like a fairly well reasoned post Shalas. If the wielder has crit gear s/he could sub in for the hit gear he's currently using, it might not be a horrible idea.
WF + Autoattack + Stormstrike is about 90% of a Enh Shaman's damage. By ditching the OH, you lose about 25-30% of that (down one third, but autoattack effectivly gains 5-10% hit and WF procs stop being eaten by the OH). In addition, your weapon is 20-30 DPS lower than it would otherwise be. As an asspull guess, I don't see a damage loss of 25% as unreasonable. If you have ten casters, each one needs to do 2-3% more damage from Nightfall to break even, which requires 20% uptime. WoWHead comments say it's about a 12% proc rate. With 80% Flurry uptime (and assuming WF/SS can proc it), you'd get about 30% uptime -- 50% higher than needed to break even with my rough guess of damage loss (or break even with only 7 casters, which is far more realistic). In addition, you'd be moving damage away from a character with significant aggro issues to ones that have fewer problems, and making the shadow priests return more mana. The second shaman would only add about 20% uptime though, so both using it at the same time probably isn't worth it.
The UR issues means it probably isn't worth messing around with, but the proc really is ridiculous enough that Nightfall isn't an entirely terrible idea.
I may have missed it, but aren't you assuming the average caster's DPS is equal to the enhancement Shaman's DPS? Your calculations should take the relative dps differences into account instead of using pure percentages.
Also, I'm not sure if the figure of 25% dps loss for the shaman is accurate. When I've tried 2h DPS (with a level 70 epic), my damage seemed to drop more than that. However, that might be due to the fact I had to leave a larger threat buffer between me and the tank.
@Mextro, There isn't alot to be said really, just keep upgrading your gear, the belt and second ring are the worst items you have, so set those as a priority.
I recently dropped herbalism and took leatherworking, it cost me close to 2k gold but i eventually got it to 375 and crafted some of the BT/SSC items, if you can get hold of the plans (assuming guilds on your server are in there) that might be worth doing.
The items aren't cheap to make considering the price of the plans and a couple of the rarer parts, but will be nice upgrades.
Yeah i know about the belt and ring, problem is prowler belt and garona never drops. Also, which shoulders should i go for, bladed shoulderpads of merciless, or the t4 ones? I already have 2 parts, but when i got the gloves i really needed to fix alot of my gems because i lost my meta bonus and 1% crit.
ever since BC came out I compared all leather and mail items by (re-)calculating their base stats by hand. So here's just a quick question to see if I'm right or wrong.
Afaik 25agility = 22critrating = 1%crit. Since 22critrating equals 25agility doesn't that mean 1critrating equals 1.136agility and therefore making gems with critrating superior to gems with only str on them? For example, the 4critrating/4str gem actually translates into 4.5agi/4str making it better then the 8str gem used in many examples here?
You have it a bit backwards. 1.136 agi = 1 CR, therefore a gem that gives you 4 crit rating would have to have 4.5 agi on it in order to be the same amount of crit% as a 4 crit rating gem.
WF + Autoattack + Stormstrike is about 90% of a Enh Shaman's damage. By ditching the OH, you lose about 25-30% of that (down one third, but autoattack effectivly gains 5-10% hit and WF procs stop being eaten by the OH). In addition, your weapon is 20-30 DPS lower than it would otherwise be. As an asspull guess, I don't see a damage loss of 25% as unreasonable. If you have ten casters, each one needs to do 2-3% more damage from Nightfall to break even, which requires 20% uptime. WoWHead comments say it's about a 12% proc rate. With 80% Flurry uptime (and assuming WF/SS can proc it), you'd get about 30% uptime -- 50% higher than needed to break even with my rough guess of damage loss (or break even with only 7 casters, which is far more realistic). In addition, you'd be moving damage away from a character with significant aggro issues to ones that have fewer problems, and making the shadow priests return more mana. The second shaman would only add about 20% uptime though, so both using it at the same time probably isn't worth it.
The UR issues means it probably isn't worth messing around with, but the proc really is ridiculous enough that Nightfall isn't an entirely terrible idea.
The main reason for me to raid as enhancement is to bring respectable damage and more importantly buff my group with totems and UR, UR being the cherry on the cake.
Using a 2 hander I doubt UR would be up even 75% of the time on my group, my damage would undoubtably drop by way more than 25-30%.
Using the Kaelthas 2 hander my dps is around 550-600, DW on the same fight my dps is 1000-1200 depending on debuffs.
The Kaelthas 2 hander is more than double the dps and 3 times the top end damage, how any guild or player would think this can be viable is beyond me.
You have it a bit backwards. 1.136 agi = 1 CR, therefore a gem that gives you 4 crit rating would have to have 4.5 agi on it in order to be the same amount of crit% as a 4 crit rating gem.
That sounds like I'm correct?! ;)
Originally Posted by Kissmyaxe
Well if you use: 1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.43 HR = 0.9 HasteRating and take into consideration BoK then 1 STR=1.1 STR > 1 CR, else they are equal.
Afaik CR gets buffed from BoK just like Str gets buffed making it better again. At least I read that in the Euro Forums.
Strength, Agility, Stamina, Intellect, Spirit are the only stats affected by BoK.
All the other stats like AP, any rating, health bonuses, etc are not affected.
So is BoK the only reason why Str > AP or am I missing something?
I'm leveling my shaman atm but its better to know how to equip him right before I'm actually gathering equip.
I'm sure that none of the ratings get buffed by Kings. You have a link to the thread on the Euro forums?
WoW Forums -> Mongoose or 20 strength?
I remembered wrong.
The thread doesn't say that CR gets buffed by BoK. It says that CR is always better then STR or AGI, even with BoK. That's only logical after thinking about it. 1 AGI/STR with BoK = 1.1 AGI/STR. 1 CR = 1.136 AGI. So CR always wins, especially when there's no Paladin around.
So is BoK the only reason why Str > AP or am I missing something?
I'm leveling my shaman atm but its better to know how to equip him right before I'm actually gathering equip.
1 Str gives 2 AP and some block value. But obviously block value is useless as for an enhancement shaman.
If you don't take BoK into account 1 Str = 2 AP.
But if you ever have a choice, like gems for example, I see no reason whatsoever to take AP over Str.
To Beroll:
I don't see the point of your argument. Noone is debating that CR is better than Agility point per point. But if you add Strength into the equation, that is a whole other discussion that has no "right" answer. As debated many times, CR vs Str is relative to your current stats. If you want to compare them, get a set of stats and work from there. But ofcourse that's what the various enhancement shaman threads have been discussing...
07/10/07, 8:16 PM
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