Disquette - I'm not really understanding how you are proposing that I alter the Expertise AEP section.
Here's the OP:
Next, we must account for the fact that Expertise, unlike hit rating, also effects the yellow damage from special attacks in addition to the white damage from auto-attacks. To correct for this, you need to multiply by the ratio of melee damage to white damage, or (Yellow % of damage + White % of damage)/(White % of damage). If we assume that shocks/searing totem are 10% of damage and white damage is 50% of damage, then this ratio is (40+50)/50 = 1.8. Also, because white crit rate as a percentage of landed swings decreases as hit rate goes up, but with the two-roll system, yellow crit rate stays constant, we must adjust for that. In the example above, with a 30% melee crit rate: If we assume that shocks/searing totem are 10% of damage and white damage is 50% of damage, then this ratio is (40*130%+50)/50 = 2.04.
Finally, we must multiply by the AEP of 1 hit rating, to convert our "hit rating" equivalency into AEP.
Our final expertise calculation is:
<br /> \text {AEP} = \lfloor \frac {\sum {\text Expertise}}{15.8} \rfloor \times 15.8 \2.04 \times \text {Hit AEP} <br />*
*For a shaman with 30% crit. Adjust the 2.04 number for yourself per the formula above.
Oops, that was sloppy of me. I changed the OP in the quoted part to include my version. I'd love it if Rob or other people could give it a once over to confirm the wording.
This whole suicide spec discussion is hurting my head, I want to get elemental devastation, but I can't live w/o the 3% hit and the totem range. I have a hard enough time keeping all 3 totem buffs on all 5 of my party members on mobile fights, and I don't even twist. I can't see this spec ever being bettter than our current enhance cookie cutter build.
I dropped Imp Ankh for 2 points in Concussion. I can't justify the points in Ankh anymore and with shocks gaining 1k+ spell damage in raid scenarios/less mana constraints it should do alright.
The thing that I'm confused about and haven't really been able to figure out is how Concussion actually plays in. I assumed that it wouldn't show up on the tooltip and just affect the damage, but it's changing the tooltip. Is the talent like terrible pre2.0 Healing Light where it only affects the base damage?
Sorry for the scrubass question, no in house elemental shaman and wowwiki has nothing about it.
I dropped Imp Ankh for 2 points in Concussion. I can't justify the points in Ankh anymore and with shocks gaining 1k+ spell damage in raid scenarios/less mana constraints it should do alright.
The thing that I'm confused about and haven't really been able to figure out is how Concussion actually plays in. I assumed that it wouldn't show up on the tooltip and just affect the damage, but it's changing the tooltip. Is the talent like terrible pre2.0 Healing Light where it only affects the base damage?
Sorry for the scrubass question, no in house elemental shaman and wowwiki has nothing about it.
I'm considering doing the same thing come 2.3. I cant justify the 3% hit for melee and spells loss and I like the extra range and melee damage change. I kind of assume that since spellhit is one of the best scaling stats for casters, it is probably better for us to pick up what we can of that rather than a few more points in the elemental tree.
Well would you take 5% increase in shocks damge 15% in fire totems, 1 Second less on shocks Over 3% hit for spells and melee, 30 Yard totems & Improved Ankha ?
I didn't do the numbers yet but I would definitely be staying Enhancement/Resto seeing that the benefits are much more viable in a twisting raiding enviroment.
Improved Totem Range = Less repositioning totems = Less mana spent.
Improved Ankha = Used it at the last boss ? No worries it will be ready at the next one.
3% Hit = Only way to increase our Spell hit if we are going enhancement which generally means 3% increase in shock damge.
It's safe to say that we'll spend at least 45 points in Enhancement, leaving 16 points left over. Elemental as a second spec has always struck me as something that, while incredibly shiny, is a red herring. 5% more damage to shock spells is quite nice, but the % of your DPS that comes from shocks (~5%) is somewhat marginal. Reverberation is very attractive, especially with the new totem, however using the same logic, 3% spell hit is also very attractive.
Elemental Devastation is not, in my opinion, something which is worth going for. It's 15 points deep into the Elemental tree, and it works off of stats which we don't put any emphasis on at all. Yes, 3% melee crit is fantastic, but (and I'm judging this off my last two Gruul runs, TK last night was...horrible) I am looking at ~10% of my Flame Shocks miss, and only 3% of them crit. Speccing 15 points into Elemental so that 3% of the time I can gain 3% more melee crit is, in my mind, a waste. Especially considering that my FS miss would now be in the ~13-14% range, which would effect my use of the new totem, I don't see it as the spec for me. I'm going to probably be 0/45/16.
I think the other thing to consider is that we aren't Enhancement Shaman to wave around a nice blue-colored epeen on the meters. (Well I'm not, at least) We have a significant support roll. I don't think that a chance to get 10s of sightly increased crit rate, and better shock damage, is worth 10yds in totem range, 3% hit, and more health/mana on Reincarnate.
Even with spell damage we have already conclusively shown that Elemental Devastation is not viable for any circumstances. The up time for the buff is stupidly low. Discussing value of shocks vs resto stuff, yah ok. That's worth talking about. But elemental devastation should just be off the table, period.
[quote=Gehenna;545198]I was always under the impression that having a non-affliction warlock on a raid keeping up CoE against a raid target when on average we'll say 3 people can take advantage of it was well within the spectrum of useful.
In my scenario, I gave these variables, if I am going to keep up a shock rotation of flame shock, every other 6 seconds could place me stealing a stormstrike counter from an elemental shaman (if present) or, take advantage of the debuffs accordingly.
I am confident the choice in these situations is not only viable, but optimal.[quote]I didn't meant this in an aggressive way btw. But to explain better the situation, yes it could occure but that occurance is largely due to basically, no offense to them, other people screwing up.
Frost mage are very very very bad for raid dps. If that option is viable only because some other raid members make poor spec decision, i don't see how you can call that viable honestly, because i don't see 3 people taking advantage of COE, unless you mean you as an enhancement shaman, but honestly, the frost damage bonus is very marginal compared to the loss of Curse of Doom.
Although next patch, a bunch of mage will probably return to Fire, since the combine changed of TLC and MSD might very well means the end of the Arcane mage, which might mean the return of CoE, much to the joy of our Flame Shock damage. I am no mage, so i cannot tell if it will be a definitive change.
One thing about expertise is that single item efficiency in it depends a lot in entire gear efficiency. And it, just like hit, has a cap. I guess best thing before actually adding is to see what everyone would like to state about expertise, i will start i guess:
Efficiency. Lets say have Vashj belt and Hydross shoulders for total of 35 expertise. That is so inefficient kinda as 31.6 is the effective expertise. Now lets add Brooch of Deftness and we get 56 expertise. While in singular it might not seem so efficient then we get effective 55.3 expertise rating.
Cap. Important to notice is 5% dodge with 1 expertise reducing 0.25% dodge gives 5 * 4 * 3.95 = 79 expertise rating ceiling for it. With orc that ceiling is actually 79 - 5 * 3.95 = 59.25 => 60 expertise rating. Extra expertise will not improve from behind, but from front parry is supposedly higher than 5% so it would still reduce that.
Another important note here is that formula assumes no parries, if we consider parry as well then AEP would be doubled until dodge is eliminated. Due to this it is by far best stat for shamans tanking by dps assuming healing wont be problem as no mail has expertise rating. That is not likely to change as well due to fact hunters do not benefit from expertise rating.
Hi all, i'm sort of in a twist atm and was hopeing to get a answer here or at least a little light shining on it.
It hooks up onto the GOA<>WF part of the OP and i was always following it until recently the physical DPS (melee/hunters/tanks) started asking/debating about it.
Our typical raid setup is 7/8 physical dps (1/2rogues, 1/2hunters. 1/2dps warrs, 1/2feral druids, 1/2hunters and sometimes 1 enhancement shaman (me) in any mixed and matched setup.
Me beeing Enhancement specced is usually when im either to lazy to spec back resto or when we got enough healing power.
Party setup is then me, 1dps war, 1hunter and either 2 rogues or 1 rogue and 1 feral druid (the non tanking one).
Basicly your standard recipe for dropping WF+SOE totem and lets knock some socks.
But, sometimes im paired with this one hybrid MM/SV specced hunter with 3/3 expose weakness.
He always asks for the (imp) agi totem, and he gets backuped by this one dagger rogue who seems to like his poison procs better then a wf proc and/or the feral druid.
The warrior/sword rogue combo insist on WF.
I usually drop the spelldmg totem and tell them to shut up and let me decide which totem because they are afteral my totems
Now, i'm in this selfish twist tbh.
When i drop the agi totem it gives the physical dps (and tanks) a 24.2AP (88+kings/4) buff and the rest of my party some nice crit extra.
When i drop WF totem only the DPS war and the sword rogue take a DPS buff, the dagger rogues sticks with his posions and the druid/hunter/me get nothig out of it.
The hunter has 800+agi and with elixir/food/scrolls/buffs he gets in around 1k agi wich is a almost permanent buff of 250AP for all dps/tanks (if i read the talent right)
Now, i'm not a maths master but isn't there any point at wich dropping the GOA totem for a surv hunter beats the WF totem for only the DPS war/sword rogue.
Maybe this was covered already, but i spent the last hour+ diggin thru 190pages of replies in this topic and trying the global search for "hunter+surviva+agi+totem" and "hunter+survival+goa".
For the ones that don't know the 3/3expose weakness talent a heart.
It gives the hunter a 100% chance (3/3) on a crit to apply an Expose Weakness effect. EW increases the AP of all attackers against the target with 25% of the hunters agi for 7seconds.
And with almost or more then 40% crit raid buffed you crit far more then once per 7seconds so its almost constantly up.
Atm i stick with WF totem, but when the warrior dies i switch to agi in a snap (when there is time).
is there anything conclusive to say about this or is it just as black/white as the OP says?
No matter what has been said about it, or that it might disappear soon, totem twisting might be the answer to your problem.
Do not make a choice between GoA and WF ... just use both.
If you need to make a choice, I'd say drop WF only.
After all, your SV hunter does not need to be in the melee group to make them benefit from EW (it is not a group buff, it is a target debuff).
This might be a major group re-thinking for your raid, but I strongly believe nothing really beats WF as long as you have an offensive warrior in your group (I think the OP also contains a link where this is mathematically demonstrated).
And I also think your poison-loving rogue is wrong.
Disquette I am updating the Expertise section now with your changes. Would it be correct if I said that in order to compare NewItem to CurrentGear, one could do this - ExpertiseCalculation(NewItem + CurrentGear) - ExpertiseCalculation(CurrentGear) ?
Would it be useful do you think to produce some graphs of how the value of Expertise changes based on changing % of Crit, White and Yellow DPS%?
Also, I would like to propose that we consider changing the term 'AEP' to just 'EP' to stand for Enhancement Points, since the term AEP was derived from the hunter/rogue Agility Equivalence Points and doesn't really make much sense.
Been doing some extensive searching this past week and been bugging the rogues in my guild as well and I can't seem to find an answer.
In regards to haste potions, is it better to pop them on CD, or once procs/buffs are up. My melee group usually gets cycled 3-4 lusts a fight, I have a DST and I use the ashtongue talisman. Is it worth it to wait for DST/Power Surge/Lust all to be up to pop a haste potion even if it means waiting 20-30 seconds after the cooldown comes up?
In regards to haste potions, is it better to pop them on CD, or once procs/buffs are up. My melee group usually gets cycled 3-4 lusts a fight, I have a DST and I use the ashtongue talisman. Is it worth it to wait for DST/Power Surge/Lust all to be up to pop a haste potion even if it means waiting 20-30 seconds after the cooldown comes up?
If you've got manually triggered buffs, activating everything at once is the way to go. If they're random procs you're probably going to be better off waiting for only one before using a consumable since it may take too long for all of them to be up.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
No matter what has been said about it, or that it might disappear soon, totem twisting might be the answer to your problem.
Do not make a choice between GoA and WF ... just use both.
If you need to make a choice, I'd say drop WF only.
After all, your SV hunter does not need to be in the melee group to make them benefit from EW (it is not a group buff, it is a target debuff).
This might be a major group re-thinking for your raid, but I strongly believe nothing really beats WF as long as you have an offensive warrior in your group (I think the OP also contains a link where this is mathematically demonstrated).
And I also think your poison-loving rogue is wrong.
Well, i kind of remember that there was a calculation about added WF dps/dmg on a dps warrior. But either the OP is reworked and it isnt there anymore or my memory fails me.
I tried totemtwisting using Disquette's mod (wich is great for watching the WF timer) but in the end it costs insanly amounts of mana and time and i just didnt like it.
What i'm thinking about is is the fact of giving 9/10 ppl (7/8 physical dps+2/3 tanks) 24AP extra (thats the added value of GOA totem ontop of EW) and 5 ppl 88agi+kings (we always have kings) wich is a nice crit% for most melee classes not a better use of my totem then just 2 raiders who get extra swings (dps warr+rogue).
Ow, and i think the toothpickwielder is wrong to, but if it makes him happy.
Well, i kind of remember that there was a calculation about added WF dps/dmg on a dps warrior. But either the OP is reworked and it isnt there anymore or my memory fails me.
Indeed.
The calculations (that were made with WF proccing from "yellow" damages) lead to something like "depending on this warrior's stuff, WF totem will equal to between 100 and 200 more DPS for him alone" I think.
At least, it's an obscene 3-digit number that made me believe WF > GoA.
Even if that number is optimistic, it still ends up being more raid-dps than a total of 240 AP divided among 10 people. In my own opinion, that is.
Yah those links were removed because of the changes to WF totem making them invalid. Disquette only managed to do some limited testing on the 2.3 server so I don't think he got the full run of results he had hoped would settle this.
Haha, Frost Shock is definitely not a viable option for a shaman's shock rotation.
It can be viable. Tanks get expertise for more TPS and we get 15% more aggro reduce. But we'll see. Anyway if there is no frost mage in the raid it's not worth using.
11/12/07, 1:30 PM
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