Flame totems generate their own threat - mobs attack the searing totem instead of the shaman casting it.
How about healing stream totem? Does the shaman or the totem get extra threat for the healing done? With the new + to spell damage, I'm thinking it might be useful to drop healing stream totem in the future, but I wonder how that should effect my threat.
I am very excited about the 30% threat reduction coming, so I'm hesitant to add new sources of threat when I am about to finally stop being threat capped.
Bubba: I did some non-conclusive testing and my feeling was, after it, that it does not effect my TPS. My threat is very spikey anyway, and with no +heal the totem was pretty weak. (This is why I say it's non-conclusive)
Edit: Actually, I have used it with a bunch of +heal. When we were doing some Karazan farming runs to gear some of our younglings, I was trying to see how much I could get it to tick for, so I equipped heal gear, popped ZG trinket (best trinket evar) and dropped the totem. It was ticking for >100 and I saw no noticeable threat increase for the fights.
How about healing stream totem? Does the shaman or the totem get extra threat for the healing done? With the new + to spell damage, I'm thinking it might be useful to drop healing stream totem in the future, but I wonder how that should effect my threat.
I am very excited about the 30% threat reduction coming, so I'm hesitant to add new sources of threat when I am about to finally stop being threat capped.
Remember that heals are 50% threat of the effective healing done. A healing stream totem, even with 700-1000 spell damage, is not going to be a significant contribution of threat.
There's alot of talk about Totem Twisting. It's a very powerful tool that I have been starting to ween myself off of. The reasons are based around the simple statement that is now on the first page of this guide.
Twisting has it's days numbered. The Dev's are aware of it, and plan to be taking steps to end it. If that is the case, then I would prefer not to supernaturally inflate raid performance only to have it come down . Of course my raid understands this point and agrees. But if the crutch is going to be yanked out from under ya, gotta start learning to walk without.
On a seperate note; I see that Weapon Expertise is being given a series of values. Aren't those values based entirely on attacking your opponent from the front? Chances of attacks being parried from behind is zero. Am I correct?
hiyas, i use enhancer to calculate my AEP in game, just updated it today on the 13th before the patch, although i don't think it takes the new armor ignoring stat into account. if anyone knows just curious if i have to calculate that manually or if the mod does it for me. thanks!
It reduces dodge/parry/block. Mobs can dodge, even from the back. You can take a look at WWS parses to observe this too. (I could be wrong, but I believe it's a 5% chance to dodge, 360 degrees)
I hate the less then 50% filled talents though. I currently run with 5 points in concussion, as the alternatives don't seem to help much in a raid environment. The alternatives usually being totemic focus/anticipation/imp LS.
Here's an elemental hybrid option: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
It's pretty close for me, although I'm still fairly sure the 3% hit from resto will still have it beat by a noticeable margin. The utility of 1 more second off shocks is handy, and possibly on par with the increased totem range. (I view the first 8 points in resto as a waste anyway, so the expensive shock talents come out to a wash in that regard) If elemental had a low tier shock crit option (maybe instead of concussion), Elemental Devastation would be a lot more viable.
There's alot of talk about Totem Twisting. It's a very powerful tool that I have been starting to ween myself off of. The reasons are based around the simple statement that is now on the first page of this guide.
Twisting has it's days numbered. The Dev's are aware of it, and plan to be taking steps to end it. If that is the case, then I would prefer not to supernaturally inflate raid performance only to have it come down . Of course my raid understands this point and agrees. But if the crutch is going to be yanked out from under ya, gotta start learning to walk without.
On a seperate note; I see that Weapon Expertise is being given a series of values. Aren't those values based entirely on attacking your opponent from the front? Chances of attacks being parried from behind is zero. Am I correct?
That sounds like the lazy man's eckscuse, "they're going to nerf it so I'm not going to bother doing it". There was nothing in this patch to prevent it and I doubt there will be in any future patches until they revamp the totem system. A nerf to the duration/application of the WF buff can't realistically happen because the game in it's current form is balanced around arena.
I hardly consider twsiting a crutch, it's probably the easiest thing that you can do in a raid. It takes little to no attentiveness(hey look a purple bar), and while the "ficksing" of having wf/goa or wf/ta out at the same time will result in a net loss of raid dps I see zero reason to not abuse the system while you can.
As far as the ele/resto subbing, it will be totally playstyle/raid specific. I don't ever see myself putting less than 14 in resto, but I can only think of a handful of times(including progression) where I have ankhd. The only times I really die are when the shit hits the fan and ankhing would be pointless. If you pay attention to threat, your hp, your surroundings, and your potion/healthstone/bandage cooldown survival should be a nonissue making imp reincarnate useless.(imo!)
Last edited by rava : 11/13/07 at 3:51 PM.
Reason: my ecks key is broken
I realize the ideal shock rotation is the fs/es, but I am running into an issue. My guild leader (an elemental shaman, also reads this thread frequently, so may in fact read this) has told me that I cannot use Flame Shock. It takes up a debuff slot that he believes is more valuable for another class.
Since I try and let him get at least one charge of the stormstrike debuff, my shocks are sort of nerfed. I realize that shocks comprise only a relatively small part of our damage. But I was hoping there could be some logical arguement I could present him with to use Flame Shock.
Since I try and let him get at least one charge of the stormstrike debuff, my shocks are sort of nerfed. I realize that shocks comprise only a relatively small part of our damage. But I was hoping there could be some logical arguement I could present him with to use Flame Shock.
Run Demon and watch the debuff count. Don't flame shock when you're at 35+ debuffs. Earth shock otherwise and he can suck it up with less aggro for him. I'm sure he can catch up anyway.
There's no reason to listen to bullshit about pushing off buffs if you aren't near the cap at the time anyway.
Shouldn't the argument around elemental/enhance versus enhance/resto revolve around the 5 second CD on shocks versus the +3 hit, more than anything else? Sure the +5% increase in shock damage in nice... I guess. The 10% decrease in mana cost is okay, maybe less important now in 2.3, but the 5 second CD is an increase of 20% in the amount of shocks you can cast. If + melee hit is a non issue since you can get all you need from gear and +6% from the talent. Aren't we only comparing, for damage sake (I know 30 yards is nice on totems), +3% to hit on your shocks versus +5% more damage and +20% more shocks?
Shouldn't the argument around elemental/enhance versus enhance/resto revolve around the 5 second CD on shocks versus the +3 hit, more than anything else? Sure the +5% increase in shock damage in nice... I guess. The 10% decrease in mana cost is okay, maybe less important now in 2.3, but the 5 second CD is an increase of 20% in the amount of shocks you can cast. If + melee hit is a non issue since you can get all you need from gear and +6% from the talent. Aren't we only comparing, for damage sake (I know 30 yards is nice on totems), +3% to hit on your shocks versus +5% more damage and +20% more shocks?
If you guys don't want to believe what has been run into the ground please go and respec. Your loosing 6% to hit because you will loose 3% to your spell hit and 3% to melee which alows you to hit cap your melee specials so you can somewhat ignore to hit from equipment and gems. Overall dps is higher with this build. It was before the patch and it is after the patch. They have already run the numbers. This question has gotten as bad as people coming in here and asking what to hit number should they shoot for.
Aren't we only comparing, for damage sake (I know 30 yards is nice on totems), +3% to hit on your shocks versus +5% more damage and +20% more shocks?
Yes, and we have comprehensively shown, time after time that the 3% Hit is better.
I think I'm doing this right - If shocks with a 6 second cooldown are 5% of your DPS, than a 20% increase from the 1 sec cooldown means that shocks are now 0.05 * 1.20 = 0.60. Take that 6% and increase it by 5% shock damage and now your shocks are 0.06 * 0.05 = 6.3%, a 1.3% improvement.
Take 3% Hit and apply it to your white dmg, typically 50% of your damage and you get a 1.5% improvement, and that's just accounting for the White dps, not the specials and not the 3% spell hit either.
It is not some vast coincidence or conspiracy theory that 90%+ of Enhance shaman are specced into resto.
Aren't we only comparing, for damage sake (I know 30 yards is nice on totems), +3% to hit on your shocks versus +5% more damage and +20% more shocks?
No, there's also 3% more hit on your white damage associated with Nature's Guidance. 3% of 5% plus 3% of 40% [which is generously low] is better than 25% of 5%.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
No, there's also 3% more hit on your white damage associated with Nature's Guidance. 3% of 5% plus 3% of 40% [which is generously low] is better than 25% of 5%.
I'm not saying I'm not on glue here, it's just my damage usually breaks down a little different.
50% white
30% WF
10% shocks
10% SS
1% Romeo Poison
Now this was before I read the first page here. I had 216'ish +hit and only +6% from talents. (I need to do some testing and then I'm sure I'll agree with everyone else.) It's just that I read from here that +hit basically is the last stat to work on and then I read that this patch is all about increasing shock damage.
I hate the less then 50% filled talents though. I currently run with 5 points in concussion, as the alternatives don't seem to help much in a raid environment. The alternatives usually being totemic focus/anticipation/imp LS.
Here's an elemental hybrid option: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
It's pretty close for me, although I'm still fairly sure the 3% hit from resto will still have it beat by a noticeable margin. The utility of 1 more second off shocks is handy, and possibly on par with the increased totem range. (I view the first 8 points in resto as a waste anyway, so the expensive shock talents come out to a wash in that regard) If elemental had a low tier shock crit option (maybe instead of concussion), Elemental Devastation would be a lot more viable.
I too had thought about this spec but I haven't had the time to do the math on it. Anyone else care to test/theorycraft it?
I'm curious if there are any work/predictions on high raid stat weights which are sadly absent from the OP. In eyeballing the changes from low raid to mid raid ratings, it appears like haste rating became significantly more valuable than before.
Of all the gear that gives high raid exclusive stats (armor pen, haste), it appears that only fists of mukoa will actually outshine other high raid alternatives with normal stats like agi/crit/hit/ap.
I'm also interested to know how AP/Str will be weighted now that 2.3 is live. My intuition tells me that crit will be valuable early on, but once you have around 30% crit unbuffed, you'd probably want to favor AP a bit more because of the boost in shock/totem damage.
Based on this intuition, I intend to replace my low end crit based trinkets with AP related trinkets in the near future.
An alternate look at the benefit of Elemental Devastation:
(Source, values for level 70)
1% hit = 15.76 hit rating
1% crit = 22.08 crit rating
3% hit = 47.28 hit rating
3% crit = 66.24 crit rating
Using the EP numbers from the first post (~T5+):
3% hit = 66.192 EP
3% crit = 132.48 EP
Without doing any further math it should be clear, at this point, that it is not going to work-out in favor of Elemental Devastation.
In order to get the 3% crit for 10 seconds, you have to crit with a shock. You will get 12 shocks per minute, with Concussion. Your base spell crit chance is 5%. (Most likely it will not be noticeably more than that with int, so lets leave it at 5%) This puts Elemental Devastation at 0.6ppm, best case, and totally ignores the effects of spell-misses.
132.48 EP * 0.6ppm * 1/6 (10sec on buff) = 13.248 EP
This is abysmal. Even ignoring n00b errors, which I'm sure I made in those calculations, it should be clear that Elemental Devastation is not a good investment of spec points.
Yes, and we have comprehensively shown, time after time that the 3% Hit is better.
I think I'm doing this right - If shocks with a 6 second cooldown are 5% of your DPS, than a 20% increase from the 1 sec cooldown means that shocks are now 0.05 * 1.20 = 0.60. Take that 6% and increase it by 5% shock damage and now your shocks are 0.06 * 0.05 = 6.3%, a 1.3% improvement.
Take 3% Hit and apply it to your white dmg, typically 50% of your damage and you get a 1.5% improvement, and that's just accounting for the White dps, not the specials and not the 3% spell hit either.
It is not some vast coincidence or conspiracy theory that 90%+ of Enhance shaman are specced into resto.
20% increase? I would have thought higher...
The 5 second shocks and 5% damage boost increase your shock DPS by 40%.
5 second shocks allow a 4 shock/20 seconds repeatable attack sequence with Stormstrike
(ie. [in format time/spell] 0/SS, 1.5/FlaS, 6.5/ES, 10/SS, 11.5/FlaS, 16.5/ES, 20/SS, repeat]
With 6 second shocks, the rotation goes as follows:
(0/SS, 1.5/FlaS, 7.5/ES, 10/SS, 13.5 FlaS, 20/SS] as the last shock would slow your SS rotation. (in general, my SS damage is higher or close to equal to my shock damage, so I would put SS as a more important rotation to keep up)
As such, with 6 second shocks, you only get 3 shocks every 20 seconds, on a repeatable attack sequence...
This added to the fact that you are getting 5% extra damage on all shocks means that you're getting the benefit of (105+105+105+105/100+100+100) = 1.4 = 40% extra damage.
Now it would depending on whether your shocks benefit you for more than 7.5% of your total DPS, and also would obviously have a lower effect on people who hold their SS's for when WF is off the cooldown. Yet again, that in itself brings about it's own mixed benefits/losses...
And if looking at a pure comparison of the two specs, then the small static extra bonus of ~10 DPS on searing totem is there too :P
I'm curious if there are any work/predictions on high raid stat weights which are sadly absent from the OP.
If someone wants to do the finger work of producing an Average T6 AP/Crit/Hit/Weapons set and then run a *lot* of yo's sim against those numbers then we can get some EP values for it. Otherwise, I'm content that at the high end a shaman can figure it out on their own.
Yes, and we have comprehensively shown, time after time that the 3% Hit is better.
I think I'm doing this right - If shocks with a 6 second cooldown are 5% of your DPS, than a 20% increase from the 1 sec cooldown means that shocks are now 0.05 * 1.20 = 0.60. Take that 6% and increase it by 5% shock damage and now your shocks are 0.06 * 0.05 = 6.3%, a 1.3% improvement.
Take 3% Hit and apply it to your white dmg, typically 50% of your damage and you get a 1.5% improvement, and that's just accounting for the White dps, not the specials and not the 3% spell hit either.
It is not some vast coincidence or conspiracy theory that 90%+ of Enhance shaman are specced into resto.
So with my numbers:
Shocks = 10% dps so 20% increase = 1.2*.1 = .12 + 5% more damage = .126 or a 2.6% increase in damage.
3% more hit to 50% damage (assuming no diminishing returns because of too much +hit) = 1.5% more damage from white.
3% more hit to 10% shock damage = .3% more damage from shocks.
It looks like 2.6% increase for better shocks versus 1.8% increase for more hit. Plus my comparison actually favors the +hit since I'm assuming my observed 10% from shocks. My shocks would go down without the 5 second CD. Plus I think it's going to be even more exaggerated with 2.3 when I'll get +525 to +825 bonus damage (depending on procs) from talents.
You know why your breakdown has 10% of damage coming from shocks? It's because you're already specced Elemental as your secondary tree.
In reality you're boosting your contribution from shocks from around 5% to around 10% by virtue of your current spec, which makes a comparison such as you're doing completely invalid. If you spec with 0 points in either elemental or restoration, you will not see 10% contribution from shocks.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
11/13/07, 1:41 PM
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