Monkeysnarf

Doesn't that hurt the argument of 3% hit is better?

 

Nite_Moogle

No, it does not. You're claiming that you will see a further increase of X by speccing elemental, but you already are elemental. By not taking 3% hit you are artificially reducing your amount of white damage contribution and inflating your shock damage contribution, which makes your basis of comparison (i.e. 10% shock damage) a fallacy.

 

◊ Rob

@ Disquette:
That looks good for expertise in the OP.

@ Malan:
Yeah, EP as Enhancement Points sounds fine. I'll start using that terminology.

 

LionsFist

Actually, my shock DPS varied between 7-9% of my total damage while enhance... depends on the fight and the raid make-up...

Well if your shocks are X% of your DPS, white averages at about 50%.

NG is 3% on (50+X)% and the ele talents are 40% on X%... hence your breakeven point would be about X=4.05%.

If you wanted to take the bonus instead to be about 30% if you wanted to take account the missing DoT ticks from flaming (over-reducing damage there I believe, though I haven't calc'ed it out yet), your breakeven point would be X=5.55%.

If you really wished to be pedantic, you would probably consider the searing totem (and if you actually bothered the miniscule bonus from 1 point in ED if you were going for the pure DPS instead of taking the extra -3% elemental damage taken) when considering the DPS of the ele talents...

 

Imperator

Switched Gloves of Dextrous Manipulation for Gloves of the Searing Grip which have expertise.

The only difference for me (with my gem selection for meta requirements) was a drop in crit from 27.38% to 26.69%, a .69% drop in return for 4 Expertise rating which works out to exactly 1% dodge/parry reduction.

Not a math whizz, but I think it's a nice improvement.

 

ChaguraED

For all the First-time posters.

Please Stop Arguing that ED/elemental points are better with the Theorycrafters.
Run Yo!'s sim on the first post. You can decide between having ED or not, the hit from nature's guidance, and 30% AP as spell damage.

This has all been covered repeatedly in the previous pages

 

LionsFist

Fairly sure haven't mentioned ED apart from that small point in the last post about if you were looking to spend your last of the 16 points in ele and you wanted the miniscule benefit of 1/3 ED (lawl).

As for the finer points of elemental? I still don't see anything definite on the difference between shock DPS boosting vs. the +hit still.

 

Laet

Basically the difference is if you don't go and get the 3% to hit out of Resto, you're going to have to itemize some +hit gear. I don't know if it's worth it honestly, but everyone seems to be saying no. Or am I completely misunderstanding?

 

LionsFist

I think it's practically impossible to gear yourself without getting at least some small amount of +hit...

Even a small amount will max it out for your SS/WF amounts.

 

vorda

Which is exactly why Moogle only applied the 3% hit bonus to white damage.

Really, noone here is going to stop you from speccing in elemental if you want to, you'r just not going to find any math to convince the theorycrafters here to follow your example. Not to mention the obvious practical loss of totem range.

 

Gartixxar

for expertise I did some calculations on my shoulderpads of the stranger with my crit being 28% and hit rating valued at 1.6 and since my total expertise is 10 with the base model for rough estimates and the Aep of the 10 expertise came out to about 32...can anyone verify this?

 

◊ Rob

Floor(10/3.95)*3.95*(40*1.28+50)/50*1.6 = 2*3.95*2.824*1.6 = 35.69536 EP

Resto vs. Ele: You won't convince me to drop 10 yds of range from my totems for maybe a 1% damage increase.

 

Gartixxar

Thanks alot...it was a very rough calculation It was close enough for me though..where the 3.95 come from?

 

◊ Rob

3.95 expertise rating = 1 expertise.

 

Malan

Wait now I'm confused since you have me using 15.8 in the OP.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Gartixxar

well in game..it says 5 expertise rating=1 expertise..I myself am very confused as well and I haven't read a whole lot on expertise rating..I skimmed it...so I should go over it again and see what I missed >.<

 

rava

Vashj belt gives 25 eckspertise rating and gives me 6 eckspertise.

Full price for gum!? That dog won't hunt, Monsignor.

 

◊ Rob

That's my bad, although I corrected it a couple pages ago, it didn't make it into the OP yet. Change both instances of 15.8 to 3.95.

 

lorka

Expertise rating works the same as weapon skill rating not hit rating

 

bestpike

Undoubtetly, if you spec enh/ele and shock in every cooldown your dps will increase significantlly. But what im wondering is, will i have the luxury to shock in every cooldown or i will take aggro?

 

everwatch

Asking for some math help.

2 tests on Blasted Lands mob.

1st test: Netherbane MH and Umbral Shiv OH (95.6dps) with 17.81% hit, 29.86% crit, and 1996 AP. 1mil dmg done with 860dps 60% white, 28% WF, 11% FT.

2nd test: Netherbane MH and Merci Axe OH with 17.62% hit, 30.25% crit, and 2029 AP. 1mil dmg done with 950dps 59% white, 41% WF.

I know larger samples are more accurate. However I only wanted a preliminary run to see some basics, because I want to do a real test with full Raid buffs and with real weapons. I will run a more closely accurate one later with my Rising Tide MH and with Netherbane/Umbral Shiv in OH.

Now the numbers seemed too close to me. Were I to work in some haste gear and drop down to a 1.5 speed OH the FT would jump. Also I run closer to 2600 to 3k+ AP now fully buffed depending on group makeup and paly's available.

How much FT dmg do you lose to spell hit penalties? Is it a full binary resist? My spell crit is 6.something raid buffed I think. What % of the FT dmg can I really count on in a raid so I can run the rest of my tests and find some accurate info?

I'm not saying FT is better. However I am saying I'm not going to take a sim as the Bible's truth. Any math help to give me guidelines or testing parameters (such as test mobs outside of BL or total dmg done minimums, etc) would be greatly appreciated.

Also how do I calculate the extra dmg being done because of my MH only using WF cooldown? Do I just time it then and with x time for both WF and FT test see what happens? Run the test by timed variables, and not total output? Thanks.

http://www.skeletonjack.com/

 

everwatch

We did ZA tonight man and I've never taken my Prism from Vashj off since I got it due to agro. Tonight I did not use the trinket at all - I never went OOM one time and I non-stop shocked and never took agro. You gotta be smart to not go nuts on the first 5 seconds to 10 seconds of a boss like usual, but the threat change now is so amazingly different it's awesome! You can full shock rotate easy.

http://www.skeletonjack.com/

 

Neithan

Im here with you Rob. Not in all fights you are in pure melee group. +10 yards tremor at Archimonde ftw

Edit: Morning spelling.

 

LionsFist

Might have to come up with some of my own then...

In this, I'm comparing the following two specs, and the benefits of 16 points in each tree considering enhance now basically requires 45...
Ele/Enh: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Shaman -> Talent Calculator
Enh/Resto: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Shaman -> Talent Calculator

Restoration Tree Damage Buffs:
- Nature's Swiftness: 3% Spell and Melee hit.

Elemental Tree Damage Buffs:
- Concussion: 5% LB/CL/Shock damage.
- Call of Flame: 15% increased Fire totem damage.
- Reverberation: 1 second decreased Shock cooldown.


Point to be made about % of damage dealt by shaman through shocks:

Base ES damage: 658-692.
Base FlameS damage: 377(+422 DoT)
WCS: no raid buffs/16% resist rate.
(Ignoring the following that would buff this even further: CoE, Scorch debuff, excess SS charges, misery)

Now using base stats only:
- Presuming shocks going off every 6 seconds(FS/ES rotation): 1474 damage per 12 seconds base. DPS: 1474*0.83/12 = 101.95.
- Presuming shocks going off with 6 seconds cast in 3shock/SS cycle 20sec cycle(FS/ES/ES): 2149 damage over 20 second cycle. DPS: 2149*0.83/20 = 89.18.

So in worst case scenario, but still presuming you can actually shock on time, your DPS from shocks will be ~90 DPS. That in itself would mean that if your shock damage is 5% of your total damage, you would need to be putting out 1.8k DPS in a Utopian world.


Best situation gained by Enh/Resto:

Presuming the following:
- Mental Quickness --> Raid buffed 2300 AP --> 700 +spell damage
- CoE /w Malediction (13%)
- Scorch (15%)
- Misery (5%)
- NG giving only 14% miss rate on shocks.

- Presuming shocks going off every 6 seconds(FS/ES rotation):
Flame Shock:(((.67 * 700)+797)/12)*1.36*0.86 = 123.39 DPS
Earth Shock:(((.42 * 700)+675)/12)*1.18*0.86 = 80.93 DPS
Hence total shock DPS = 204.32 DPS
- Presuming shocks going off with 6 seconds cast in 3shock/SS cycle 20sec cycle:
Flame Shock: ((.67 * 700)+797)*1.36*0.86 = 1480.71 Damage
Earth Shock: ((.42 * 700)+675)*1.18*0.86 = 983.34 Damage
Flame Shock (missing 2 ticks of DoT): (((.15*700)+377)+(((.52*700)+420)/2))*1.36*0.86 = 1022.23 Damage.
Hence FS/ES/FS is the best 3 shock rotation.
Total DPS: (1480.71+983.34+1022.23)/20 = 174.31 DPS

DPS with NG = ((0.08*700)+58)*1.36*0.86/2 = 66.67 DPS

Best situation gained by Ele/Enh:

Presuming the following:
- Mental Quickness --> Raid buffed 2300 AP --> 700 +spell damage
- CoE /w Malediction (13%)
- Scorch (15%)
- Misery (5%)
- 5% extra damage on shocks.
- 5 second shock cooldown.
- 17% miss rate on shocks.

- Shocks on 5 second cooldown...:
Flame Shock(missing 1 tick): (((.15*700)+377)+(((.52*700)+420)*3/4))*1.43*0.83 = 1252.22 Damage
Earth Shock: ((.42 * 700)+675)*1.25*0.83 = 989.23 Damage
Flame Shock(missing 2 ticks):

[top] 1252.22 - 229.38

1022.84 Damage
Best shock cycle in this situation (with those buffs) is Flame shock/Earth shock.
DPS of this = 224.14 DPS

Searing Totem also does 15% more DPS in this situation, which is:
DPS with Call of Flame = ((0.08*700)+58)*1.57*0.83/2 =74.28 DPS

Summary

Ele/Enh Shock DPS = 224.14
Ele/Enh Searing DPS = 74.28
Enh/Resto Shock DPS = 174.31 in cycle/204.32 ignoring GCD and SS interference
Enh/Resto Searing DPS = 66.67

Hence difference in DPS gained from Ele/Enh = 298.42 - 240.98 = 57.44 DPS

This means that for Enh/Resto to do more damage then Ele/Enh, 3% of your white damage would need to be > 57.44 DPS.

If your white damage is 100% of your overall damage(X DPS): (for the sake of it)
0.03*X>57.44
X > 1914.66

If your white damage is 75% of your overall damage(X DPS):
0.03*0.75X>57.44
X > 2522.88

If your white damage is 50% of your overall damage(X DPS):
0.03*0.50X>57.44
X > 3829.33

Now I do understand that yes, Utopian existence of DPS cycles, lag, LOS issues, as well as moving around in fights doesn't always make things perfect like theorycrafting does.

But there can be little denial that shocks provides comparable DPS with results like these, and more potential DPS than resto.

N.B. 5 second shocks also keep Stonebreaker's Totem up at a rate of 83% instead of 69% for 6 second shocks.

 

Neithan

Just from quick check, NG reduces spell resist by 3% but you only counted 2% in Enha/resto part.