Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 195

Mbuzi · 11/14/07, 6:46 PM

@Aegospotami - not that Malan needs defending, but wow, just wow. Kings gives a 10% benefit to strength. Comparing inscriptions:
(34*1) + (16*x) = 17*2.2

x = Hit Rating

x would have to equal a mere 0.2125 for them to be equal. No one rational here is suggesting hit rating is meaningless. In fact until you get very near the cap it's value will be > 0.2125 so this line of attack isn't very effective and demonstrates your lack of understanding about what EP is used for.

Krom[Fenris] · 11/14/07, 6:48 PM

Maybe I'm missing an obvious reason as to why, but since the patch I've been noticing a strange bug. When I cast WF on my main hand weapon, a lot of the time my health drops 5%. I can't think why this would happen at all.

• Krish · 11/14/07, 6:51 PM

Originally Posted by Aegospotami

I'm going to call BS on you here because you try to make people look stupid for bringing up the +Hit argument, when it's the one thing you don't have any numbers for.

Misses cannot proc Windfury or Critical Strikes. Period.

And if you truly believed that hit rating is a stat that wastes stat value at the expense of other things, you would not have the +34 AP and +16 Hit Rating inscription on your T4 headpiece. What makes this even more hypocritical is that, as you've noted on several occasions, Strength gives a much larger benefit in a raid buff situation (BoK, Gift of the Wild) than Attack Power.

So if the choice is between the Lower City inscription (+17 Str, +16 Int) and your +Hit Rating/AP inscription, according to your own Theorycrafting you've chosen the wrong inscription.

And because we keep seeing the +Hit question popping up, apparently I'm not the only one who has noticed a DPS increase when changing from your recommendation (prioritizing only +Hit from talents) and switching to a few pieces of gear that add +Hit. There is no question that +Hit in the 200-range is excessive, but there is every indication that going from around 70-80 +Hit to the 120 - 130 range will lead to a DPS increase.

You've helped a lot of Enhancement Shaman players with your theorycrafting, but it's pretty clear on this issue that, because you see yourself as the authority on these matters, you are reluctant to admit you're wrong. And there's no mistaking, you are wrong here.

Man are you barking up the wrong tree.

NOBODY is saying that +hit is a bad stat. It is simply not as good as the other yellow-gem option, crit rating. I'm finding it hard to not just dismiss your argument as pure trolling, but 34 AP and 16 hit rating are better than 17 strength.

If you think that hit rating affects the percentage of swings that will crit, you are just wrong. Look into attack tables, do some real research, and then come back here and post your apology. There are a large number of intelligent people here who have put a great deal of time into understanding exactly what's going on behind the scenes to influence DPS in a raid environment. All of us who have participated in and used the information in this forum have improved our raid DPS because of it.

Take your anger and ignorance elsewhere.

Stopokingme · 11/14/07, 6:53 PM

Anyone figured out how to turn of the bloody annoying Shamanistic Focus proc sound? It's driving me and the other melee mad :P

Mostly looking for a non intrusive method, a simple mod or something, or barring that, at least the name of the soundfile that plays every time, think it is the clear cast noise?

◊ Rob · 11/14/07, 6:57 PM

Originally Posted by Aegospotami

Misses cannot proc Windfury or Critical Strikes. Period.

Hits cannot proc Critical Strikes. Period.
Stormstrike and Windfury will never miss with the hit from talents from a 3/44/14 build. Period.
The OP already says that +34 AP and +17 hit is better than +17 STR and +17 INT. Period.

So WTF is the rest of your worthless post trying to say?

Malan · 11/14/07, 7:01 PM

Originally Posted by Aegospotami

And if you truly believed that hit rating is a stat that wastes stat value at the expense of other things, you would not have the +34 AP and +16 Hit Rating inscription on your T4 headpiece. What makes this even more hypocritical is that, as you've noted on several occasions, Strength gives a much larger benefit in a raid buff situation (BoK, Gift of the Wild) than Attack Power.

So if the choice is between the Lower City inscription (+17 Str, +16 Int) and your +Hit Rating/AP inscription, according to your own Theorycrafting you've chosen the wrong inscription.

Yah you pretty much just proved your own ignorance there bud.

And let me clear up for you - I don't see myself as an "authority" on much of anything. Frequent readers of this thread know that I've eaten my words on several occasions and proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that my math skills have taken a sharp nose dive since my last college course. I just happen to read this thread more than anyone else since I'm the one updating the info post.

ultima88 · 11/14/07, 8:01 PM

Originally Posted by ultima88

Hi all,

I realize the ideal shock rotation is the fs/es, but I am running into an issue. My guild leader (an elemental shaman, also reads this thread frequently, so may in fact read this) has told me that I cannot use Flame Shock. It takes up a debuff slot that he believes is more valuable for another class.
Since I try and let him get at least one charge of the stormstrike debuff, my shocks are sort of nerfed. I realize that shocks comprise only a relatively small part of our damage. But I was hoping there could be some logical arguement I could present him with to use Flame Shock.

Thanks in advance.

Anyone got anything for this?

Mbuzi · 11/14/07, 8:07 PM

The post immediately following the one where you asked the question had a good suggestion. Run a mod to track debuffs on the mob and assure your leader you will only flame shock when not near the limit. If you want to argue Flame Shock is a better debuff than something else well, that's another matter entirely.

david0925 · 11/14/07, 8:34 PM

Originally Posted by Aegospotami

I'm going to call BS on you here because you try to make people look stupid for bringing up the +Hit argument, when it's the one thing you don't have any numbers for.

Misses cannot proc Windfury or Critical Strikes. Period.

And if you truly believed that hit rating is a stat that wastes stat value at the expense of other things, you would not have the +34 AP and +16 Hit Rating inscription on your T4 headpiece. What makes this even more hypocritical is that, as you've noted on several occasions, Strength gives a much larger benefit in a raid buff situation (BoK, Gift of the Wild) than Attack Power.

So if the choice is between the Lower City inscription (+17 Str, +16 Int) and your +Hit Rating/AP inscription, according to your own Theorycrafting you've chosen the wrong inscription.

And because we keep seeing the +Hit question popping up, apparently I'm not the only one who has noticed a DPS increase when changing from your recommendation (prioritizing only +Hit from talents) and switching to a few pieces of gear that add +Hit. There is no question that +Hit in the 200-range is excessive, but there is every indication that going from around 70-80 +Hit to the 120 - 130 range will lead to a DPS increase.

You've helped a lot of Enhancement Shaman players with your theorycrafting, but it's pretty clear on this issue that, because you see yourself as the authority on these matters, you are reluctant to admit you're wrong. And there's no mistaking, you are wrong here.

We've already concluded that in this thread

1.Hit isn't as good for Enh Shaman because you're already hit capped from talents, for your specials, namely Windfury and Stormstrike

2.Hit becomes increasingly better as your gear improves because hit is a percentage increase to your DPS. Therefore in T6 level gear of critical percentage and attack power, you'll see increase in dps at a faster rate.

3.Hit Pushes Miss off the combat table, crit pushes hit off. Hitting more won't make you crit more. While it is true that you may miss a hit that could've procced windfury (very bold assumption), but that still doesn't justify stacking hit at early gear level.

In addition, there are some of us that NOTICED DPS difference from swapping from pure +hit to just AP and crit (I stacked 10 dawnstones before, so i definitely know the difference)

And on the helm inscription, 6.8 AP < 14 hit rating

david0925 · 11/14/07, 8:36 PM

Originally Posted by Mbuzi

The post immediately following the one where you asked the question had a good suggestion. Run a mod to track debuffs on the mob and assure your leader you will only flame shock when not near the limit. If you want to argue Flame Shock is a better debuff than something else well, that's another matter entirely.

Track your own Flame Shock damage ticks. If it ticks for a larger portion than any other DoT that is permitted on the mob, then your raid leader should let you keep it.

If it is ticking for the least, and can push off important debuffs such as sunder armor, then don't use it.

seminarca · 11/14/07, 8:40 PM

It should also be said that gear with Hit Rating on it generally (key word there, generally) has a better spread of stats than gear that doesn't. Spending itemization points only on Str and Agi is going to result in overall lower amount of stats than if you were to spend the same itemization points on Str, Agi AND Hit. Swapping to gear that has Hit Rating on it will generally give you more overall stats, and result in a DPS increase.

I think the main impetus of this perceived "anti-Hit Rating" atmosphere is that early in TBC raiding, many Enhancement Shamans were using Hit Rating gems in gear whereas it's better to use straight Str or Str/Crit gems instead.

No one is saying stay away from Hit Rating as if it were the pox. Just that when you have a choice to put an 8 Str gem or an 8 Hit Rating gem, the Str one is the better option.

I don't know why AEP/EP equivalency systems are so frightening to people, I'm fairly poor at maths myself, and AEP/EP is just about one of the most intuitive ways to present information to such a dumbarse.

Anyway, my commiserations to all the Shamans in this thread, I read it off and on here and there (level 65 Enhancement Shaman alt), I can only begin to imagine the horror of finding posts like that every day.

Mengus · 11/14/07, 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by seminarca

It should also be said that gear with Hit Rating on it generally (key word there, generally) has a better spread of stats than gear that doesn't. Spending itemization points only on Str and Agi is going to result in overall lower amount of stats than if you were to spend the same itemization points on Str, Agi AND Hit. Swapping to gear that has Hit Rating on it will generally give you more overall stats, and result in a DPS increase.

I think it's more the case that if an item has Hit, Crit, AP... then you'll have less itemization weight on stats we value. STR and AGI proportionally give less value, because they are higher weighted for ilevel.

i.e from an item level standpoint, 3 agi = 4 crit rating

BoinKlasik · 11/14/07, 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by Mbuzi

The post immediately following the one where you asked the question had a good suggestion. Run a mod to track debuffs on the mob and assure your leader you will only flame shock when not near the limit. If you want to argue Flame Shock is a better debuff than something else well, that's another matter entirely.

I would run something like Demon for this.

◊ Rob · 11/14/07, 11:06 PM

Originally Posted by Mengus

I think it's more the case that if an item has Hit, Crit, AP... then you'll have less itemization weight on stats we value. STR and AGI proportionally give less value, because they are higher weighted for ilevel.

i.e from an item level standpoint, 3 agi = 4 crit rating

No, from an ilevel standpoint, 3 agi = 3 crit rating = 3 hit rating = 3 haste rating = 6 ap = 3 str (assuming that the item starts with 0 stat points invested).

benvegas · 11/14/07, 11:55 PM

Is it time for Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol II?

...195 pages of excellent info for us before getting a nice rework in 2.3. How about a fresh start Malan?

Malan · 11/15/07, 12:10 AM

We've been waiting for Boe to get some time to get the Wiki going where all this will migrate. The wiki should then be used for people to post updates to, not discussion really, and then have normal threads out here to hash out all the details.

everwatch · 11/15/07, 1:41 AM

**EDITED**

Did some tests in BT using FT. I was an avid hoper that "theory" would be proven wrong. It was not. Tests in 25 man raid content showed FT as "viable" dps used on a fast OH weapon, however it was not superior to DW WF on 2 slow weapons.

As some backup test data for those interested in Blasted Lands as a base example:

16.15% hit / 35% Flurry haste / 5.76% spell crit was used across the board using Rising Tide MH with WF.

Merci Axe OH w/WF
2033 AP / 32.77% crit
White: 64%
WF: 35%
881.6dps in 6 min
320k dmg done

Umbral Shiv OH w/FT
2077 AP / 32.57% crit
White: 66%
WF: 21%
FT: 12%
844dps in 6 min
307k dmg done

As Disquette well pointed out, WF benefits more from +AP than FT does because our spell dmg is a % of that AP. IE. WF scales better with AP. The only way to scale FT better is with an inordinate amount of haste. I used 5% Flurry haste, not quite 5% true haste, to lend some of that credit to FT. Due to the haste nerf and itemization I have to retract all ideas and questions I made to FT being an equal or better alternative. RL testing proved true the theories in here from what I did in BT and from what a very simple test in BL backed up. Thanks for the previous work on this matter Disquette, Malan, and others.

everwatch · 11/15/07, 6:42 AM

I swapped over to Ele/Enhancement spec since I was intrigued by it from an earlier post. 16/45/0 I've been Enhance/Reso since I started my toon, so this is a 1st time change and test.

In BT tonight I found my total shock damage to be 17% of my total damage done using FT in my OH. In 2.2 with Resto side spec it was only 9% of my total damage done using WF in my OH.

I went to Blasted Lands and did a small test. I used a lil bit of human error, messing up GCD slightly here or there, to better simulate actual real %'s that would match my playstyle.

16.15% hit / 35% Flurry haste / 5.76% spell crit / 32.77% crit / 2033-2457AP (I should have taken off my relic/trinket due to procs)

White: 46%
WF: 30%
SS: 8%
ES: 8%
FS: 8%
1374.9dps
654k dmg done

16% of my damage done was Shocks versus a mob with no real resists to speak of. In a raid environment my Shock damage is a higher %. Probabaly a longer test result would have helped. Plus I will Shock even when out of melee range for whatever reason in actual game play. So 17% of my total damage with 16/45/0 spec appears to be Shock damage in 2.3

I don't plan on respec'ing - I like my -10% dmg from fire/frost/nat too much. Is there any shaman who is Resto side spec'd who can tell me what % they're getting who has similar gear? T5/T6 equiv mix.

Atren · 11/15/07, 7:50 AM

Blasted lands mobs are no longer reliable for hit mechanisms, NG is quite useless against them due to level difference. Any test on them would give great advantage for elemental.

jackiechen89 · 11/15/07, 8:30 AM

i guess most of your work is done base on instance raid..
where i am mostly pvp player....
spend most of my time in Arena or battlegroud.
so here is few point i don't agree with you..
please let me know what you think and correct me...

Enchantment/elemental
somehow i believe is much stronger than echchantment/rest in your point of view
i agree +hit is important.. but however...
during PVP ... player don't stand there for you to attack... most of time requireds you to run around...
shock dispel. shock for slowing target inorder to able to hit them with your weapon...
so i would like to ask your opinion on enchantment/elemental on PVP...
where you spend 5point to reduce your casting time by 1sec along with new Metel Quickness...
this talent become more powerful than used to be...

also like to ask you...
what about the play style on 2hand weapon with extremely slow speed like 3.6+
with alot of haste speed... how will that perform?

Razzan · 11/15/07, 9:52 AM

Well about the new patch changes:My guild did a SSC keying run from some new guys so i went there as 2/45/14 with NG.First of all i must say the new totem is very good! On every second shock it was up and sometimes even during continuous shocks.The mental quickness is now a great talent no doubt about that since my shocks cost now 181mana (\o/),and with the new shamanistic focus i shock spam every 6 seconds.Also noticed sme really nice damage form shocks like 2563 crit 2456 etc whcih is lol :P.The thing i couldnt go well with and wont ever go well with is the stupid,irritating,noobish,WINDFURY AND STORMSTRIKE DODGES!I almost NEVER miss and im low on the meter because of that issue...53453534543 dodges.Gief expertise -.- ..This doesnt mean i look only to dps since i first make sure that i fulfill my support role appropriately..If we get expertise then our dps will go skyhigh,we will hit all the time :P.

P.S. 34AP+16hit is better than 17str+116int and Malan does a damn good job with advice for all enhancement shamans out there..Keep up the good work!

Razzan

Monkeysnarf · 11/15/07, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Atren

Blasted lands mobs are no longer reliable for hit mechanisms, NG is quite useless against them due to level difference. Any test on them would give great advantage for elemental.

Blasted lands has not been a reliable mechanism for testing anything, since we were level 60 and only when we didn't want to test against circumstances that would come up in a 40-man raid. You can't value stats when you're fighting hit/crit factories and when AP is exaggerated due to level difference and lack of armor mitigation.

For instance, how are you going to model the 30% of AP that is now translated into spell damage, compared to AP that is translated into physical damage when you're not fighting a mob with the same armor, glancing and dodge of a raid boss? Shocks aren't mitigated by armor.

So logically AP now has more value than it did prior to 2.3 because it increases 2 types of damage. Plus, crit will have more value for longer fights where mana might become an issue, to keep up the 60% reduced mana cost. Of course crit will then have a different “ideal value” depending on if you have 5 or 6 second shocks. (Probably doesn’t matter if you twist though.)

• Shabadu · 11/15/07, 10:16 AM

After spending last night in the back half of BT, I can say without a doubt: This patch is awesome. If the only change we got was the Shamanistic rage -30% damage, I'd be a happy clam. In a trash situation, being able to become a fury warrior on demand makes for a much more aggressive play style and I love it. Taking damage off Veras's Deadly Poison, Shahraz's beams, Reliquary's auras, etc was lovely.

But, I think the biggest difference wasn't in any of our changes, but rather in the expertise change for tanks. I went from having to hold back significantly on council using the Vashj trinket to going full bore with shocks/haste pots etc and only hitting 90% of tank threat. Teron especially used to be bad for threat, but between new spirit weapons and expertise, I only came close during lust/haste/drums.

Here's Teron through Illidan +comedy DST lottery on Gruul. Shabadu - WWS

Originally Posted by Razzan

Razzan

Nite_Moogle · 11/15/07, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Shabadu

Here's Teron through Illidan +comedy DST lottery on Gruul. Shabadu - WWS

I have to say that I'm pretty surprised that your shocks are indeed clocking in at 10% of your damage. I suppose seeing shock contribution was a bit to be expected due to the Mental Quickness change and the mana cost reduction, but damn. What are you normally using for weapons? I doubt you're packing Soul Cleaver in raids.

berg · 11/15/07, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by Shabadu

After spending last night in the back half of BT, I can say without a doubt: This patch is awesome.

SR has clearly changed the game for us. Threat is a total non-factor and our dps got boosted (conveniently hidden from meters)

These are instances where I have been truly grateful about Shamanistic Rage.

EoS - P1 tanking. P3 with the seethe/ae spam is also so smooth now.
Gurtogg - if you get focused or hit by poison
Mother - Ports are completely harmless now.
L5 beams from council robot bastards.
Rogue focus, blizzard, flamestrike on council.

It is amazing. Shamanistic Rage has to be one of the top 2-3 PVE skills for any class in the entire game. But most importantly our mana burden is so low now that we can save SR to use it reactively.