The other shaman models are just fine, they should give you correct results.
The holy priest model is fine too, the shadow model is not finished
The protection tank model is not completely finished, but the results should be ok.
Rogue isn't even started.
It has some certain problems with selecting the right gems and it has some problems if you actually lock too many item slots, you should always leave like 2-3 open, otherwise it might as well crash.
My thought was that INT would have such a low weight in comparison to the other stats that it wasn't worth calculating. But I suppose we should back that up with some math.
My approach with "weights" is to answer the question, "If someone gave you 1 item point, what would you want it to be?" Right now, the answer is 1 Str (weight 1.1). If you couldn't get that, you'd want either 1 CR or 1 Agi (weight 1) or 2 AP (weight 0.5). If you couldn't get those, you'd say 1 HR (weight 0.7).
Where does INT fit in there? I'll do a super rough calc that perhaps other people could refine.
1 INT = 15 mana.
Converting mana into damage: ES spam is 675 dmg / 535 mana, or 1.26 DPM. (Not accounting for FS/ES rotations or SS debuff, rough numbers.)
So the 1 INT gives 15 * 1.1 (kings) * 1.26 = 21 damage. Generously, we can say that you get to reuse it every 2 minutes because of SR, making this 21/120 = 0.18 dps.
(I'm overlooking the ES cooldown, because the max number of shocks in a 2 min window is controlled by mana, not by that cooldown.)
Tornhoof's sim and my sim agreed earlier this week that 100 AP would add about 22 dps (to someone with approx. full kara gear). That's 0.22 DPS/AP, compared to 0.18 DPS/INT. Ratioing down from AP's weight, the weight for INT should be about 0.5 * 18/22 = 0.41.
These are really rough numbers and there might be errors. But if they're approximately right, INT is so weak that you'd prefer even 1 point of AP to 1 point of INT.
My thought was that INT would have such a low weight in comparison to the other stats that it wasn't worth calculating. But I suppose we should back that up with some math.
My approach with "weights" is to answer the question, "If someone gave you 1 item point, what would you want it to be?" Right now, the answer is 1 Str (weight 1.1). If you couldn't get that, you'd want either 1 CR or 1 Agi (weight 1) or 2 AP (weight 0.5). If you couldn't get those, you'd say 1 HR (weight 0.7).
Where does INT fit in there? I'll do a super rough calc that perhaps other people could refine.
1 INT = 15 mana.
Converting mana into damage: ES spam is 675 dmg / 535 mana, or 1.26 DPM. (Not accounting for FS/ES rotations or SS debuff, rough numbers.)
So the 1 INT gives 15 * 1.1 (kings) * 1.26 = 21 damage. Generously, we can say that you get to reuse it every 2 minutes because of SR, making this 21/120 = 0.18 dps.
(I'm overlooking the ES cooldown, because the max number of shocks in a 2 min window is controlled by mana, not by that cooldown.)
Tornhoof's sim and my sim agreed earlier this week that 100 AP would add about 22 dps (to someone with approx. full kara gear). That's 0.22 DPS/AP, compared to 0.18 DPS/INT. Ratioing down from AP's weight, the weight for INT should be about 0.5 * 18/22 = 0.41.
These are really rough numbers and there might be errors. But if they're approximately right, INT is so weak that you'd prefer even 1 point of AP to 1 point of INT.
I like seeing this result. It makes me feel good about giving INT at least some weight in my Lootzor string. It raises a couple questions for me:
What's the maximum mana pool required for 2 minutes of SS, ES/FS, and totems between Shamanistic Rage (plus mana pot) cooldowns?
I think someone has done this work before, but it's easier for me to duplicate it than to search for it.
SS x 120/10 = 236*12 = 2832
SoE, WF, Mana Spring x 1 + Searing x 2 = 225 + 243 + 90 + 153*2 = 864 (note this is with Totemic Focus, adjust upwards by 25% if this doesn't apply to you... now that I explicitly see that this talent is only worth 288 mana/120 sec = 12mp5, I might get rid of it)
Mana gained from Mana Spring = 12*120/2 = -720
ES x 120/6/2, minus one lost to GCD = 535*9 = 4815
FS x 120/6/2, minus one lost to GCD = 500*9 = 4500
Totemic call with 5 seconds left on totem durations = -238
2832 + 864 - 720 + 4815 + 4500 - 238 = 12053
We can then safely say that any INT which raises our buffed mana pool above 12053 is going to be useless, if we can get a refill off of SR + mana pot. If one waited until their mana pool were depleted by the amount of a Super Mana Pot at the start of a fight, chugged one, and then continued chugging each time the CD was up, you would get a larger "effective" mana pool without any more INT. A Super Mana is at least 1800 and averages 2400 mana, so if you accept the average, you don't need INT which raises the buffed mana pool above 9653. (Do pots still crit?)
Can we expect to fill that up with Shamanistic Rage?
Obviously, this is going to vary a lot with gear; and as most shamans know, it also depends on the fight (whether or not you can get a nice solid 30 seconds of attacking the ass end of a boss mob without having to move). We know that you get 15% of your AP back per proc. Do we have hard data on whether this is PPM or percentage-based?
SS x 120/10 = 226*12 = 2712
SoE, WF, Mana Spring x 1 + Searing x 2 = 288 + 312 + 115 + 196*2 = 1107
Mana gained from Mana Spring = 12*120/2 = -720
ES x 120/6/2, 5 seconds + 1 sec for gcd = 460*10 = 4600
FS x 120/6/2, 5 seconds + 1 sec for gcd = 430*10 = 4300
Totemic call with 5 seconds left on totem durations = -237
2712 + 1107 - 720 + 4600 + 4300 - 237 = 11762
With 2 extra shocks and the 5% extra damage adding up to a third extra shock in damage. With one out of the 20 proccing Elemental devastation for +9% crit as well on average.
So it's a savings of only about 300 mana with 3 extra shocks of damage, and a solid chance at proccing +9% crit every two minutes.
SR in my experience seemed to be PPM, as with a two hander it was proccing almost every swing fairly reliably. However dual wield seems to be PPM per hand, so you end up with almost the same effect at about twice the rate. The description is also fairly typical of a PPM description on the tooltip.
Also keep in mind that once your attack power reaches a certain breakpoint the time frame changes. You'll be filling your mana pool and able to refresh all your totems inside the window of SR, and even get free shocks off as well.
With SR lasting 30 seconds and enough attack power, you can almost guarantee yourself full mana at the end of 30 seconds. With a full totem refresh.
So a full totem refresh is about 8 seconds with GCD I believe. Which leaves 22 seconds for other spells. Which is 3 shocks untalented, or 4 talented.
If we assume the enh/resto build and full mana at the end of SR we have:
SS x 90/10 = 236*9 = 2124
SoE, WF, Mana Spring x 1 + Searing x 2 = 225 + 243 + 90 + 153*2 = FREE (SHould be able to drop and recover during SR uptime)
Mana gained from Mana Spring = 12*120/2 = -720 (will be up during SR)
ES x 90/7/2 = 535*6 = 3210 (there's rounding here, but rounding down due to not being able to land a partial shock)
FS x 90/7/2 = 500*6 = 3000
Totemic call with 5 seconds left on totem durations = -238 (Should probably not count as it will happen during SR?)
2124 - 720 + 3210 + 3000 - 237 = 7377
With Enh/Ele:
SS x 90/10 = 226*9 = 2034
SoE, WF, Mana Spring x 1 + Searing x 2 = 288 + 312 + 115 + 196*2 = FREE
Mana gained from Mana Spring = 12*120/2 = -720
ES x 90/6/2 = 460*7.5 = 3450 (15 shocks, so one needs to be 8, averaging as it can go either way)
FS x 90/6/2 = 430*7.5 = 3225
Totemic call with 5 seconds left on totem durations = -237
2034 - 720 + 3450 + 3225 - 237 = 7752 (with 3 more shocks and 75% of the damage of another shock)
NOTE that these are only if you are able to maintain a shock rotation and re-drop all totems during SR, ending at full mana. If you are able to proc 400 mana/second, you can get 12000. 500 mana every two seconds (which is more reasonable at higher ends of gear) is 7500 mana during SR. The closer you can get to the end of SR with full mana without interrupting your shock/SS rotation, the closer to efficient you get. Right now I only ever seem to need the cheap combat mana pots to keep shocks going. Although I'm usually aggro capped before that, or have trouble keeping on the mob for the full duration.
Quick Conclusion
I have some overlap and rounding issues here, and will assume that hardly everyone keeps up a perfect dps rotation on every cooldown, or gets 100% uptime. These numbers are pointing at about 7400-7800 under optimum conditions and a certain level of AP. I'd say 8500 is probably the ideal amount of mana to allow for breathing room WITHOUT relying on pots. If you have pots you either can get more breathing room or a lower mana pool. Or save the cooldowns for non-mana pots.
I also hardly ever find myself using totemic call unless I'm moving away from my old totems, as I'd rather refresh them one at a time and not take the buffs off my group for sake of my mana efficiency. There's also water shield to consider, which procs off of many more conditions then Lightning Shield, so I usually keep it up all the time.
My thought was that INT would have such a low weight in comparison to the other stats that it wasn't worth calculating. But I suppose we should back that up with some math.
My approach with "weights" is to answer the question, "If someone gave you 1 item point, what would you want it to be?" Right now, the answer is 1 Str (weight 1.1). If you couldn't get that, you'd want either 1 CR or 1 Agi (weight 1) or 2 AP (weight 0.5). If you couldn't get those, you'd say 1 HR (weight 0.7).
Where does INT fit in there? I'll do a super rough calc that perhaps other people could refine.
1 INT = 15 mana.
Converting mana into damage: ES spam is 675 dmg / 535 mana, or 1.26 DPM. (Not accounting for FS/ES rotations or SS debuff, rough numbers.)
So the 1 INT gives 15 * 1.1 (kings) * 1.26 = 21 damage. Generously, we can say that you get to reuse it every 2 minutes because of SR, making this 21/120 = 0.18 dps.
(I'm overlooking the ES cooldown, because the max number of shocks in a 2 min window is controlled by mana, not by that cooldown.)
Tornhoof's sim and my sim agreed earlier this week that 100 AP would add about 22 dps (to someone with approx. full kara gear). That's 0.22 DPS/AP, compared to 0.18 DPS/INT. Ratioing down from AP's weight, the weight for INT should be about 0.5 * 18/22 = 0.41.
These are really rough numbers and there might be errors. But if they're approximately right, INT is so weak that you'd prefer even 1 point of AP to 1 point of INT.
I suppose creating a ratio isn't as useful as other stats, as after your mana pool is a certain size compared to your gains from SR, it stops contributing to your DPS. The fact that the question "how much int do I need" will vary for different encounters, your stats, and raid composition. With no gear changes, on one week of Gruul, I gained 3-4k mana per Shamanistic Rage. This week, with a Survival Hunter and two Warriors in my group (meaning I get Battle Shout for the entire fight rather than just the first half), I gained 7.5k mana.
Originally Posted by Rob
I like seeing this result. It makes me feel good about giving INT at least some weight in my Lootzor string. It raises a couple questions for me:
What's the maximum mana pool required for 2 minutes of SS, ES/FS, and totems between Shamanistic Rage (plus mana pot) cooldowns?
I think someone has done this work before, but it's easier for me to duplicate it than to search for it.
SS x 120/10 = 236*12 = 2832
SoE, WF, Mana Spring x 1 + Searing x 2 = 225 + 243 + 90 + 153*2 = 864 (note this is with Totemic Focus, adjust upwards by 25% if this doesn't apply to you... now that I explicitly see that this talent is only worth 288 mana/120 sec = 12mp5, I might get rid of it)
Mana gained from Mana Spring = 12*120/2 = -720
ES x 120/6/2, minus one lost to GCD = 535*9 = 4815
FS x 120/6/2, minus one lost to GCD = 500*9 = 4500
Totemic call with 5 seconds left on totem durations = -238
2832 + 864 - 720 + 4815 + 4500 - 238 = 12053
We can then safely say that any INT which raises our buffed mana pool above 12053 is going to be useless, if we can get a refill off of SR + mana pot. If one waited until their mana pool were depleted by the amount of a Super Mana Pot at the start of a fight, chugged one, and then continued chugging each time the CD was up, you would get a larger "effective" mana pool without any more INT. A Super Mana is at least 1800 and averages 2400 mana, so if you accept the average, you don't need INT which raises the buffed mana pool above 9653. (Do pots still crit?)
They can, but generally, Fel Mana Potions are a better bet (3.2k mana restored).
Also, don't forget that Bloodlust is 750 mana. Obviously, you don't cast it ever 2 minutes, it needs to be considered.
Originally Posted by Rob
Can we expect to fill that up with Shamanistic Rage?
Obviously, this is going to vary a lot with gear; and as most shamans know, it also depends on the fight (whether or not you can get a nice solid 30 seconds of attacking the ass end of a boss mob without having to move). We know that you get 15% of your AP back per proc. Do we have hard data on whether this is PPM or percentage-based?
I use WWS to give me an indication of how much mana will be restored in a given encounter. I believe it is PPM.
All this theorycraft is irritating though. Surely with all the high-end raiders we have posting here, some would have a heavy leather gear setups they can post experience about using?
All this theorycraft is irritating though. Surely with all the high-end raiders we have posting here, some would have a heavy leather gear setups they can post experience about using?
6k unbuffed mana. 1400 unbuffed ap.
I never go out of mana in raids. I spam stormstrike every cast, and shock every single opportunity when threat isn't a concern. During unleashed rage, I mana dump every chance that I can, even using Fire Nova Totem / Searing Totem rotations =X. Mana is just not an issue unless my unleashed rage is interrupted somehow. (Void Reaver is annoying for this reason. I usually save my healthstones for Unleashed Rage, and just eat a few ground poundings).
Well, I'm nearly 100% kara leather and have been avoiding anything with mana for a while. The only time I have mana problems is when I forget to use SR.
I'm really curious how you guys are managing to do it, since I know that, for example, on Magtheridon I can go all-out without worrying about threat, which means I can shock every CD, which means I need to chug at least 1 mana pot over the course of the fight -- even with 1494 unbuffed AP, 6.3k unbuffed mana. I can only assume that the difference is JoW? (Or are you on a clicking rotation for Magtheridon? That would also do it.)
Just to provide a contrary description of my experience on Void Reaver: I get to stay in through pounding (we brought a ridiculously low number of melee, like two, to our first kill last night) but I am threat-capped from just autoattacking + SS, so mana's not a concern there. (It might be if I had two piece Tier 5, as I would definitely take advantage of the instant-cast LHW on that fight. Even though it would increase my threat, I sometimes have to run out for pounding and/or pop a healthstone when I'm getting scared that I won't get healed.) I think if our 4th tank were better, I would not be quite so threat-capped, he really can't keep up with the first 3.
Panny -- occasionally I have mana problems when pushing shocks to the max. Most of the time the problems are SR-related, though: either forgetting to use it, or having some of it wasted because of shatter and the like.
I'm really curious how you guys are managing to do it, since I know that, for example, on Magtheridon I can go all-out without worrying about threat, which means I can shock every CD, which means I need to chug at least 1 mana pot over the course of the fight -- even with 1494 unbuffed AP, 6.3k unbuffed mana. I can only assume that the difference is JoW? (Or are you on a clicking rotation for Magtheridon? That would also do it.)
With that kind of unbuffed AP you should be getting pretty much an entire mana bar back on Mag. The first 1-2 min of Mag are very mana intense because you (should be) redropping WF and SoE at each Channeler as you move. The last Mag kill we did I popped SR as soon as we started and just started burning mana down on the Channeler. After that just use it every time its up and you shouldn't have to use any pots. Do you not have paladins at all? If you do, and are not getting JoW, you need to yell at them. My paladins claimed they "couldn't keep judgments on" until I bitched about it non stop and made them do it. Now they keep it up all the time because they can see the huge returns we get from JoL and JoW.
Just to provide a contrary description of my experience on Void Reaver: I get to stay in through pounding (we brought a ridiculously low number of melee, like two, to our first kill last night)
You can bring more melee than that - we did VR first time last night also, had 4 tanks and 5 melee in the pounding the whole time. 1-2 Shaman can chain heal the melee through the entire fight with no issues.
Maybe there should be a few lines in the OP about which pally buffs are best for enhancement. In an ideal world, you'd get all four (kings, might, wisdom, salvation), but in reality we usually only run with three paladins. I tend to prefer kings, might, salve as my combination, due to the fact that kings and might mean I gain a healthy amount of mana back from each SR proc.
These are the pros and cons of each based on my experiences:
Kings - Increases all stats by 10%.
Pros: Good in almost every situation.
Cons: Causes a decent increase in threat generation due to harder hits and more shocks.
Might - Increases AP by 220.
Pros: More AP means stronger attacks, more SR mana returns.
Cons: Threat generation when combined with kings. Paladins have to buff this separately and refresh during battle.
Wisdom - Returns 42 mp5.
Pros: Best blessing for mana regen, shines on long fights.
Cons: Not always necessary with proper use of SR.
Salvation - Decrease threat generated by 30%
Pros: Best blessing for threat problems, allows 30% more dps.
Cons: Useless blessing when not threat capped.
In general, the other shaman always want kings, wisdom and salvation. I usually have to coordinate with the wisdom pally to get the five minute version of might and have it refreshed during battle. I placed that under con because if the pally is dead or healing then you're out of a buff after the first five minutes.
It's also worth noting (perhaps under might?) that on nights where we have a fury warrior in the dps group I tend to need salvation more, due to battleshout.
With that kind of unbuffed AP you should be getting pretty much an entire mana bar back on Mag. The first 1-2 min of Mag are very mana intense because you (should be) redropping WF and SoE at each Channeler as you move. The last Mag kill we did I popped SR as soon as we started and just started burning mana down on the Channeler.
This is slightly off topic, but proper placement of totems helps a lot during the first 2 minutes of Mag. With 30yd totems you can place them between the first and second channeler and not have to redrop until you move to the third one. I usually end up dropping totems twice after the pull, and it makes a noticeable difference in my mana pool going into phase 2. I also save SR and bloodlust till the 3rd channeler, but that's just my personal preference.
I've noticed a lot of fights where good totem placement can make mana management much easier, like Mag and Hydross. Just make sure your group knows where you're placing the totems so they can stay near them.
One thing that seems conspicuously absent from the collected theorycraft is metagem choices.
EDIT: appears that relentless earthstorm is the best choice, after reading one of the source threads. Still -- would be an appropriate addition to this excellent summary.
Its "farmable" for that exact reason, I've been running it every day for 2 weeks 20 minutes before raid time. Its my white whale.
You too? My condolences ... although I'm basically numb by now ... I think I'm up to 25+ runs without seeing it drop. Exalted with consortium, got all sorts of ethereum keys, a fel barrier, etc ... but that totem .... that totem ... why. Why. Why.
In other news, my other white whale, Skulker's Greaves, was harpooned, brought to port, and made into exceedingly expensive perfumes in the deep hours of the night yesterday.
PS: A guildmate (and member of these forums) has been trying to talk me out of socketing those pants with 3 rigid dawnstones. He's been reading these forums closely and is insisting I go for triple +8 str.
Here's my armory, with me wearing them in all their unsocketed/unpatched glory:
Once I patch them later today, I'll be starting with a baseline of 1498 ap and 203 hit unbuffed. (If I push cap, I can change out edgewalker to rapscallion, and/or pick up a pendant of the perilous to replace worgen claw).
I'd agree with your friend. I give STR a 1.1 weight and HR only 0.7.
Right now, I have 4cr/6sta in mine for the yellow slot, but that's because I just haven't gotten around to changing it since settling on the stat weights.
According to a few sims and other approaches, HR just isn't that hot above some level. You don't even need to be that close to the cap (25.5) before it starts giving diminishing returns. (As far as why this might be, I would guess it's because SS and WF only have 5% base miss rate.)
The first 1-2 min of Mag are very mana intense because you (should be) redropping WF and SoE at each Channeler as you move. The last Mag kill we did I popped SR as soon as we started and just started burning mana down on the Channeler. After that just use it every time its up and you shouldn't have to use any pots. Do you not have paladins at all?
Yeah, I do redrop WF/SoE; I also drop Fire Elemental Totem for the first 2 channelers (we MD one onto the first tank and he tanks 2 in one spot), as well as earth shocking heals/shadow bolt volleys. I typically use my trinkets on the channelers but save my SR for Magtheridon, which lets me get a full bar back if I take a few seconds off of shocking. Heroism, I don't bother popping for the first 2 Channelers because I would just pull aggro, I usually save it for the 3rd or so. I'm going to assume that any difference left over is due to JoW; we usually carry 3-4 Holy paladins, maybe I can get one of them to start judging it for me.
Originally Posted by Khrashz
PS: A guildmate (and member of these forums) has been trying to talk me out of socketing those pants with 3 rigid dawnstones. He's been reading these forums closely and is insisting I go for triple +8 str.
Your friend is right. Go triple +8 str, or if for some perverse reason you want the +dodge rating bonus, use one of the purple +4 str/+6 sta gems.
Rob, once you've had a pally judge wisdom in a fight like Magtheridon where you're essentially standing there the entire fight (minus any backup clicking duties you may have), you won't want to ever go back. In the case of Mag, JoW restores just about the same amount of mana SR does when using SR every cooldown (SR restores about 410 mana on proc untrinketed in raids).
In any event, I too have harbored the fear of losing too much Int due to wearing leather but the more my Int goes down, I can see that it truly has a very small effect. Now I just need this link handy when I bid on rogue gear.
The cooldown on Windfury Weapon means that an OH that is faster than the MH is now extremely detrimental to shaman DPS. The fast OH is more likely to hit a mob again after a WF cooldown is up, and therefore has the first opportunity to proc a new WF and trigger the cooldown again. The OH interference prevents MH WF procs and thus reduces your DPS. It has been shown that this cooldown interference is so severe that replacing an epic dagger OH (any from KZ as an example) with a green or blue 2.6 speed OH will actually increase your DPS. (Again, despite this problem, it is still preferrable to have WF on the OH. Any WF proc, even on the OH, will result in more DPS over time than FlameTongue or Rockbiter on the OH.)
The attack power bonus from Windfury is not reduced by the 50% OH damage penalty from Dual Wielding.
Can you elaborate on this point just a little bit? Since the WF bonus is not halved by dual wielding, why do you not want WF to proc on the off-hand? Is it because the WF bonus is applied to damage that's been reduced by the DW penalty? Or because itemization naturally lends itself to weaker off-hand weapons?
Can you elaborate on this point just a little bit? Since the WF bonus is not halved by dual wielding, why do you not want WF to proc on the off-hand? Is it because the WF bonus is applied to damage that's been reduced by the DW penalty? Or because itemization naturally lends itself to weaker off-hand weapons?
Offhand procs do less damage than main hand procs, and they share the same lockout timer. By minimizing the amount of offhand procs in comparison to main hand procs the theory is that you will generate more overall damage. This isn't quite as noticeable at earlier levels of itemization since it has been revealed that the AP from the Windfury proc applied to the offhand is not halved as you would expect, but once you reach SSC/TK/MGlad level gear it becomes much more pronounced as more of your damage is generated from AP.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
drats - Good idea on the totem placement, don't know why I didn't think of that.
Krashz and Negative - I went through the itemization thread like 3 times and somehow keep missing the couple of posts that debated meta gems, if someone can summarize it up for me to put in the OP or link it, I'd be obliged. Quite busy at work right now.
06/20/07, 12:57 PM
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