Still wondering about this, also, was my offhand a good choise till netherbane (no i dont wan't/can't get gladiator axe)

To those that keep asking, "what's a good hit rating to be at?", "what's a good crit rating to be at?" etc. I ran some simulations using the java sim posted in the op using a batch file to check for trends at the extremes. Basically, I ran it going from 9%hit to 25% hit at various attack power levels (one at my unbuffed attack power, one at my raid buffed attack power, and one at an absurdly high attack power just for giggles.) I did the same with crit, from 1% to 50%. Of course, I would add or subtract equivalent "pater" attack power per his formula, so that the total point values were always equal.

Here is what I found, at unbuffed attack power, from 9% to 20% hit, it was fairly flat, but after that, from 20% to 25%, I saw a steady drop in dps, for a total of 6dps drop. But then at raid buffed attack power, it was flat all the way across. But then as you add attack power, more the more %hit you have, the more gain in dps you get as you go up, which makes sense, since if you have more attack power, the more you hit, the more you multiply the damage. But you would need an unobtainable attack power level to see a noticeable difference in dps. But the point is, it doesn't matter how much %hit you have, as long as you replace it with equivalent attack power or crit in a raiding situation. You could have 9% with a lot of attack power, or 25% with less attack power, it doesn't matter. The end result is the same.

As for the crit sim, there was a noticeable curve, but I'd say it's fairly flat where it counts. At lower attack power levels, the optimum point to be is lower than at higher attack power levels. Once you go past that optimum point, you actually start to loose dps, but again, I'm not talking huge amounts here. Unbuffed, the optimum point seemed to be at 20% and when you dropped below about 12% is when you really saw a noticeable drop in dps (most likely due to not being able to keep UR and flurry up any respectable amount) Then when raid buffed, that "optimum" point moved up to about 25% with starting to see a sharp drop off below 17% and at the top end around 35%. And of course the higher attack power you start with, the more crit you need to be at the "optimum" point to where if you had 5k attack power, you would see a steady increase in dps all the way to 50% crit.

In general, what does this mean to you? Well, just stick to the formula with the gear available. You'll wind up with plenty of +hit, +crit, and attack power to up your dps. Any noticeable upgrades as per that formula is going to net you a gain, even if it drops you to seemingly low crit or hit levels or even high crit or hit levels but lower attack power. In general there is no real perfect place to be, just as long as the total number of points go up and you don't go to absurd extremes with crit.

Personally, I like to see about 20% hit, 25-30% crit, and as much attack power as I can get. I hate seeing when I pop SR a few misses knowing those could have been 450 mana procs, but at the same time, there is no need to hit the cap either. As for crit, I like to see that it never goes down and flurry is up as much as possible. I don't like to see my character swinging without flurry, that's just painful to watch. Also, if you have items like the hourglass, which procs off crits, you want your crit rating as high as possible to get the most out of that proc. So yes, there is more to it than the sims, but in general, stick to the formula, and you most likely can't go wrong.

It has been said that 8 str is the best gem to go for, but I haven't seen the +20 AP gem being taken into consideration.... Wouldn't that gem be better?

[Bold Ornate Ruby]
Bought with almost 7k honor. So thats like 1 day of AV.

Yes but it is unique-equipped.

I've read here that at some point, too much sustained haste lowers dps for us. I'm wondering what point that is? Getting ready to go weaponsmith and was gonna make drakefist, but the rogues in my guild have told me i'm probably next for the dragonspine trophy off gruul. would those 2, with mongoose and flurry be too much haste? and would it be considered sustained? if so, then should i go axesmith and make the planar axe thing.

thanks for any advice.

Regarding Nightfall, if I remember correctly it procs less post-70. There was some discussion on it a while ago where over the course of a whole Gruul fight people were able to get it to proc maybe once.

Nightfall was my introduction to enhancement, the guild made me the Nightfall bitch on C'Thun and it was awesome.

Also, memories.

To be fair, little mention of how Haste rating affects our DPS is made in the OP. I remember there being a statistical valley between 45-55% haste, but not for which weapon speeds. A good rule to follow is to try to not get your MH/OH under 1.5, since then you'll cut down on WF procs.

Oh no! In the event that they're all active, yes, you'll be under the 1.5 windfury cap with your main hand (approximately 1.35 speed at that point). What's worse, is that if they're all proc'd, and you're also using Bloodlust, you'll be just under the 1.0 speed cap too - Three wasted MH attacks! (about .96 speed)

Enough "the sky is falling." The real question is do you want to plan your gear choices around combat that makes up approximately 90% * 33% * 33% ~ 10% of your time? Or gear choices for the other 90%?

(note assumptions - 90% = flurry uptime, 33% = dragonmaw haste uptime, 33% = dragonspine up time. The mongoose procs don't make any difference for this set up when it comes to falling under or over the 1.5speed barrier.)

I sense a falling sky.

Au contraire. From the OP -

Perfect, I was looking for its own entry, and completely glanced over it having read it so many times looking for stat comparisons, etc.

Yah I'm still trying to make certain areas stand out a bit more. I figured having emphasis on certain things like "USE A SLOW OFF HAND" and "DROP WINDFURY FOR WARRIORS" was more important though.

From most of the armory profiles I've seen of enhancement shaman, they usually use bloodlust brooch and the hourglass. So while dragonmaw/abacus/flurry/mongoose might put you in a situation where you have too much haste, you'll probably replace the abacus with the brooch.

But then again, you might replace that with a DS trophy... =) Personally, I'll be going dragonmaw anyway even with the chance that excessive haste lowers my dps slightly. I just think it would be fun to be attacking that fast!

To clarify, that post was not directed at Calem specifically and its not meant to be nasty. We've just had a LOT of people asking questions that are on the first page of the thread or even just 1-2 pages back.

Bladed Shoulderpads of the Merciless are better for pure DPS than T4, but the helm and shoulders are the two strongest pieces of T4, so I would take those for your 2-piece set bonus and replace the gloves/legs/chest with something else. (Chest, off Magtheridon, comes in 3rd and is fairly decent, but the leather chest off Nightbane is equivalent and the Ranger-General's Chestguard off Hydross and the Bloodsea Brigand's Vest off Karadthress are superior.) Basically, the answer to your question about gear depends on what's available to you.

As for offhand, what you're using is good, in fact absolutely the best you have access to, but you are really unnecessarily gimping yourself by refusing to go for the Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver/Pummeler. Get a 2v2 or 5v5 group and lose 10 games a week, you'll still get enough points to get that axe or mace before you can get anything better in the OH.

I have the +3 melee dmg meta gem in my T4. How does that equate in terms of AEPs? The Maulgar's War Helm has a higher AEP because I dont use the +24 ap one.

First off, apologies for cross-posting. I posted this in the "Modeling Darkmoon Card: Wrath" thread, but I think this thread might actually be more fitting (and it seems like the cool hangout for Shaman theory). I've read through this whole thread, great info here, but I haven't seen anything on this trinket. Here are my questions:

I am an enhancement shaman and I am strongly considering getting this card (Darkmoon Card: Wrath). It looks like for most classes with decent crit ratings, this card is underwhelming, but I see the following benefits for endgame pvp scenarios and enhancement shamans specifically:

- A good crit trinket for endgame PVP, where many opponents will have 400+ resiliance and can lower your normally high crit rating by 10% or so. Of course, the lower your crit rate, the more benefit from this card.

- Enhancement Shamans cast shocks intermittently, which have a low (~5%) crit rating. Shocks will usually not crit and will thus inflate your crit rate more than just attacking with your "real" melee crit rate.

- The fact that Shamans do use physical attacks, shocks, and occasional heals gives us a greater benefit from the card, as we benefit from both the melee and the spell crit. This will result in a small but legitimate increase in damage from shocks and increase in healing from crit heals.

- As mentioned before, classes that get significant bonuses from critting will get a better benefit from this card. When I crit, my attack speed increases by 30% and my attack power increases by 10%. This card will help keep flurry and unleashed rage up.

- Last but not least, windfury attacks occur instantaneously, and therefore when windfury procs, both attacks will benefit from any +crit charged up from the card. In this sense, the +crit charges are applied to 2 attacks and even if the first windfury proc crits, the second simultaneous proc will still receive the benefit. I have no math or in depth knowledge of the game's programming to verify this completely, but it seems to make sense.

- Stormstrike is also 2 instant attacks, and theoretically could also be a similar case of both attacks benefiting from +crit charges from the card even if the first one crits.


I respect this site and it's inhabitants very much and would love some feedback on the above points. Could the PVP-oriented enhancement Shaman be the perfect fit for this card, due to resiliance, shocks, healing, and windfury/stormstrike mechanics?

Yah sorry trinket and gem stuff is rather lax right now since I'm only putting up stuff once there's some sort of a model for it, and I'm not mathematically inclined myself.

So is the +24 AP meta gem the way to go? The relentless one seems pretty nice considering the secondary benefit also contributes to dps.

I think you should go for relentless earthstorm diamond, 3% increased crit damage and 12 agility.

How does the relentless equate in AEP value for Pawn/lootzor? 12 AGI is about 24AP but it doesn't take into consideration the increased crit dmg.

I think that a good section to elaborate on in the original post would be the discussion held a few pages back (Around 13? I think) on the 2.6/2.7 mainhand + slower 2.8 offhands, (Or perhaps in the extreme case, a 2.9 speed level 60 GM/HWL weapon.)

Since the two major smithing weapons are 2.7, and the initial post emphasizes the primacy of 2.6/2.6 or bust, I'd just foresee many redundant "Well, what about using a slightly faster/slower OH with my 2.7 smithing mainhand etc etc?"

3% increased crit damage is better then 24 ap in for example, a 25 man raid. With all the buffs and a good group setup 24 ap will barely make any different with damage