Dunno what enhancement shamans you been looking at but I do 1400-1500 DPS consistantly on most bosses, upto 1700-1800 on certain bosses (Teron, RoS for example). In karazhan gear I was able to do 1000 dps, pre 2.3 so 800 is wayyyyy too low.

For well geared rogues, from personal experience they gain 5-6% extra damage from WF, which you can look at around 60-100 dps depending on fight. MS warriors actually gain less from WF, if they use a tight slam cycle they may only get 2-3% extra from WF. Most raid buffed rogues/warriors will have ~2500-3000 AP (excluding procs) so unleased rage is adding 250-300 AP minimum to the other 4 dpsers in the group. So the main benefit of a enhancement shaman is actually unleashed rage + personal DPS, whether or not this is > than the damage of one of the other melee dps in the raid is dependant on player + gear I guess.

Thats very, very wrong. Since 2.3 our damage is way higher than 80% of a rogues, it's easily 90% on most fights, with the exception of certain fights with threat limits/clos advantage.

Just for example (hope they work), this is a Hyjal clear this week. Don't think anyone was using consumables, well I know I wasn't atleast.

Rage Winterchill
Anetheron
Kaz'rogal - He aggro'd some npcs for first 30 secs of fight screwing up everyones dps
Archimonde wipe (he had 20k hp left till 10% lol)
Archimonde kill

Pretty average clear, was just a farm raid so can't say everyone was doing thier max dps.

Oh, you can also see I was getting a 40-45% uptime on the stonebreaker totem.

Yes, EP values fluctuate depending on stats. No, if you have 400 STR, the EP value of 1 STR won't be lower than if you had 200 STR -- because AP (and therefore STR) are the baseline stats for this system. But, if you have 400 AGI, the value of 1 AGI will be lower than if you had 200 AGI, and the same holds true for crit rating, hit rating, and haste rating. Armor penetration scales in a weird way and probably has a constant EP value for a given set of other values.
No, that's not how you do it. Get a set of EP numbers, and then run the numbers on items that are available to you. If one item is 130 EP and has AGI/AP and another item is 150 EP and has STR, you pick the 150 EP item -- you don't care what stats are on it. I happen to have more AGI than STR, but it's not because I'm actively pursuing AGI/AP items, it's because those are the best available to me when I run the numbers. Run the numbers, there's no way around it.
Tornhoof's sim (look in the OP or search) is intended to do this. It's still under development. There are also other sims that claim to be able to do this, but their accuracy sucks.

Ok I updated the DPS of searing totem to 100-150, and added a note on Stonebreaker about the 10 sec cooldown. Does that cooldown change the uptime calculation?

@Malan: some nights ago i was discussing with tornhoof about the estimation of AEP of DST as you assume it has a 1.5ppm. As DST has an internal CD we wonder what procchance DST has when beeing outofCD. So I went on the PTR with a rogue and did some testing. I assume it has an internal CD of 45 seconds and a procchance outofCD of ~10%. Prof me wrong, but 1.5ppm as you state might be wrong, 1.0-1.1 would be a better guess I think which would end in 120AEP at 1.0ppm.
(proc, 45sec cd, and about 20 hits for the next proc which is >10seconds).

Is there evidence of a 45 sec cooldown?

This might be a rather stupid concern; but taking into account that im dual wielding the same weapon (and thus they have the same speed)... is it really relevant if I choose to enchant my MH or my OH with Moongose/Crusader? If im not wrong they should proc the same on both (we hit with our two weapons the same number of times and our stormstrike is a dual attack). Am I right on this or does the hit rating of our OH have a rather big influence on it? Thanks in advance

Pd: in the Op it says: "Some information on Executioner can be found here. Executioner currently does not stack from multiple hands, each proc when DWing will simply refresh the buff. It is unknown if this is intended. Obviously the value of Executioner will increase as you gain more -Armor gear. At entry raid level a shaman will probably gain more from dual Mongoose enchants. At high T5 content and beyond Executioner will be valuable to have on either hand. (It does not matter which hand you enchant)"; but im not sure if this last part is referring only to the executioner enchant or to general procs of weapon enchants.

Mongoose MH
Crusader OH

You would be better off DW Mongoose though. The OP shows that Mongoose > Sader > Potency. Both enchants will probably be proccing on each available CD, so to be honest I doubt it really matters which hand you put either on, but use Mongoose on the weapon you will be keeping longer. Doing this also reduces the number of /w " Noob!! put Sader on OH lololol!" youll be getting from people.

Hehe ok Vim; thx a lot for the advice ^^

OH does not suffer any sort of proc penalty, so no, it doesn't matter which hand.

I'm gonna try out Executioner on my OH soon, although it's a pretty damn expensive experiment, but oh well...
Any other Shamans tried it out yet?

Since this is theorycrafting:
IF procs apply to the hit that generates the proc, then you should put executioner on your MH.
IF procs do NOT apply to the hit that generates the proc, then you put executioner on your OH.

I have no combat logs to prove this. It's simple logic applied to the game mechanics.
Scenario1 assumptions:
1. The hit that produces a proc DOES NOT benefit from that proc.
2. The character has non-synchronized attacks. (i.e. dual wielding, the weapons rarely strike at exactly the same time on the server. Don't worry about storm strike)

In this case, the way to get the maximum amount of main hand attacks during the executioner proc is to have the executioner enchant on your offhand. So that the offhand produces the proc giving you executioner buff and your main hand swing is somewhere in the middle of it's cycle time, not at the absolute beginning of the cycle.

Scenario2 assumptions:
1. The hit that produces a proc DOES benefit from that proc.
2. You don't care if you have have synchronized attacks.

In this case you naturally want the executioner enchant on your main hand, since your main hand will receive the full duration of the proc for atacks.


Scenario3 assumptions:
1. You use synchronized attacks. Both weapons are always the same speed and you don't screw up the out-melee enter melee range with auto-attack on playstyle.
You simply shouldn't care what hand has the proc, since both weapons are always striking at the same time, you will either receive the full benefit or miss out on an entire swing timer's worth of the benefit of any proc.

Scenario4 assumptions, only one enchant of mongoose is available to me:
Mongoose gives 120 agility and some haste, that means you already "hit" or "crit" in order to produce the proc, therefore the hit/crit itself gains no critical strike bonus from any new source of agility. Since you're not a rogue or hunter and gain no AP from agility, your damage will not be increased on the hit that produces the proc regardless of whether it should.
Therefore if for some reason only one of your weapons has mongoose, you should always place it on your offhand, so that your main hand will spend the maximum amount of time under the duration of the mongoose proc.

Naturally if your mongoose enchanted weapon kicks the crap out of your other weapon, then put it in your main hand.


FINAL NOTE: Disquette says (in a few posts) that the hit that created the Unleashed Rage proc never benefitted from UR. Therefore, scenario1 is probably the safest way to think about the situation. Thanks for that information Disquette, sorry that my post was confusing.

The buff affects both weapons why would it matter what hand you put it on?

I'm currently using Executioner on my MH. I put it on my Decapitator the first time I saw someone offering the enchant and again on my Netherbane (which replaced the Decapitator). I like it enough where I'll always have one of my weapons with it. I don't have any sort of math or WWS to prove whether it is really better or not. But it seems to be doing well and that's good enough for me.

All I can tell you is how it feels. I cant be very objective here because of several factors.
1) I got it the day of 2.3 which had a ton of buffs.
3) I got 2 new items that day (chest/syphon (the new executioner weapon))

It feels like a superior enchant on one weapon, I set several new records on RoS the next day with it. However that is only to be expected given that mongoose does not actually give higher damage numbers, just more crits. In any case my thinking on it is that its approximately the same proc rate, bonuses to crit (basically all mongoose is to us at ~5% crit and 3% haste) have less degrees of return the more of it that you have. However something like executioner works exceptionally well with other armor penetration items anyway so you can only go up with an enchant like executioner.

again however this is just my viewpoint on this and there is no real fact here.

There used to be a mod that would aid in totem twisting, it's no longer on the first post. Can someone give me the link to that mod pretty please? Or is it no longer functional and thus removed for good?

It's in my sig, Ecomix. Twisting is turned off by default. do /dqd twist to enable that bar.

You may be suffering from a lack of performance of your other raid dps (from gear, talent builds, playstyle, whatever). I've done 1440 dps on Rage Winterchill (compared to your 1580), and you have much superior gear to mine (I've upgraded since then, and I still have no BT or Hyjal loot). On a fight like that, our rogues who are geared in BT/Hyjal just destroy me, usually in the 1800 to 2150 dps range. 1800 dps compared to your 1580 is a 14% increase. the 2150 dps compared to your 1580 is a 36% increase. The 2150 isn't standard, I realize, as he has the twinblades legendary set, but even our lesser Hyjal/BT rogues pull 1800.

Here are the only 2 wws's I see easily available.

Wow Web Stats
(the 1700 dps rogue is pvp spec'd :p )

Wow Web Stats
(note - this was the one week we didn't have an enhance shaman in raid, top rogue dps is still 1984)

Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm guessing you really know how to play well, and your dps shows it. The rest of your raid may need to step it up some, however, for you to see the same sorts of ordering that many posters here are used to.

Also, I know you said since 2.3, but do you believe that you are doing 15% more damage than you used to pre-patch?

Hi first post so I assume you should expect the normal ignorant stuff but lets hope I surprise you.

Ok I have followed this thread a long while and followed most of the recommendations to the letter, I also always specced into resto for the 3% hit bonus (as well as increased range and totem cost).

In a deluded moment after I got the Stonebraker totem I thought "hey this is 10sec cd 50% chance so why not see how much uptime I can get by speccing into reverberation.". Now as you can imagine its a silly thought the increased uptime is minimal but hey was a thing of the moment.

Anyway I raided SSC with it (Wow Web Stats) and when I looked at the WWS log after I started to wonder how much the shock damage increase was compared to what 3% hit would give me.

So I calculcated the 3%hit value out of the melee damage (afaik wf and the rest is hit capped so 3% hit doesnt mean anything for those given your base hitrating is enough) and compared it to the increased amount of shocks by their average value and I always got more dmg out from shocks than from the hit.

Calculation example from Mkaels try on Morogrim.
Melee damage= 202317, 15.2% misses
Earth Shock damage= 26900, 24 hits, avg=1120
Flame Shock damage= 45223, 29 hits, avg=1559

For ES we get 24 hits on 5 sec CD which gives 120sec and accordingly for 6sec CD 20hits.
Thus for ES we gain= 26900-20*1120= 4500

For FS we get 29 hits on a 5 sec CD which gives 145sec and accordingly for 6sec CD 24hits.
Thus for FS we gain= 45223-24*1559= 7807

These combined gives a total of about 12300.

For the 3%hit we just do (202317/(100-15.2))*3= 7157

Granted this is a bit simplistic, the extra hits and the potential impact from them isnt included but its hard to track also it isnt a huge impact and also correspondingly we dont take into consideration the increased shock damage (5%) or fire totem damage (15%).

I looked over several WWS logs linked in this thread and come to the same conslusion in all the ones I looked at.

So plz tell me what I am doing wrong here or is the 2.3 changes so good that speccing elemental for the increased shock value such a boost?

/Mkael

Since you relate your records to RoS, I'm going to assume you'r talking about p1?
The armor level of p1 has been calculated to be 0, which would mean that your new records are only because of your new weapon.

Mkael,

I'm not totally convinced that for a personal dps scenario, elemental isn't competitive, or even better (I'm going to leave imp ankh and totem radius alone). However, don't forget that the 3% hit from nature's guidance also applies to spell hit, so your shocks will be resisted more as well.

I actually am inclined to think that the elemental build would do better, but there are four things preventing me from playing with it much:
1) I value the totem radius more than the extra couple % the elemental build would add
2) I haven't followed all the math that closely where people have gone over this. My own feeling is that it's more dps, but many of the posters here who I hold in high regard I believe have expressed doubt that reality would match my gut feeling. That's a big incentive for me to stick with the resto side.
3) In pvp and heroics, I end up casting healing wave a reasonable amount, so the utility from resto as a non-raider isn't trivial.
4) It's just different, and until I see some very clear data (sims would be fine, if they're comprehensive), I tend to stick to tried and true.

To be quite honest, once damage meters start incorporating fire totem and assigning it to the person that dropped it, I suspect many shaman will indeed change to an elemental build for superior personal damage parses.

I'm sorry if this is quoting too much text, but it's all relevant, I believe to my response. When you attack and proc unleashed rage, the attack that proc'd it doesn't get the UR benefit. This is how I recall it working from way back when, when I was first building my simulator and I was swinging at servants in blasted lands with 0.9 dps weapons (low damage range) for the express purpose of seeing how things like this worked.

As a result, I'd say you'd actually want executioner on your OH so you don't have to wait a full main hand delay before the main hand benefits from it. Conversely, if mongoose is worth more to you, then you'd want mongoose on your OH so that the MH would benefit from the added crit sooner.

If you have rock solid data to prove me wrong, that's fine. Anyone can test this with unleashed rage, however, using exactly the method I mentioned above - get a low damage range weapon, wear your normal gear, and swing away for a few procs with a combat log running.

We're doing Teron -> Illidan tomorrow most likely, so I'll get back with a parse with Executioner on my OH.