Jamoth

I'm sorry, my information was wrong. The testing i mentioned was to find out the procrate outofCD, i just counted the number of hits until dst proced... and trusted the information given to me about the 45 seconds CD. I just tested that, and 45 seconds is obviously wrong. The estimated 1.5ppm are still ok. Ty Malan

 

Atren

Personally i am planning on putting executioner on next weapon i attain (keeping dual Mongoose for time being) if by that time hear positive feedback about it :P Especially as i am thinking of finally going to Arena axe (i hope i can break 1850 rating :P) over dragonstrike. Now one very important note here is has expertise been fixed or in process of being fixed? I mean the fact that wielding OH axe would give me 5 expertise for my MH mace too. or was that a display bug in first place?

Another thing about expertise: either i missed or noone here has yet done conclusive test to see if expertise converts into hit or miss? Sorry, if i missed the post.

Concerning elemental vs enhance -- it would probably come out as advantage to elemental, altough all maths in the comparison are stacked towards elemental a bit. Namely of those 3% extra hits some are bound to proc WF, taking flat 20% it would be 0.6% more WF's. Even with that i dont think resto will have more damage over elemental, just dont go for elemental devastation as that is useless still especially as weapon mastery and MQ require you to put way more than 41 points into enhance. It comes down to personal choices -- pure damage vs some utility and flexibility (10 yard bigger range, 20% more health and mana if ankh if spec for it).

 

Fenre

Well, I realize that it is hard to calculate how much hit rating would be best for the individual shaman. However I'm going crazy when I'm testing the different items I have. I'm not going to link those since it would'nt help anyways.

First of all, does anyone know how much armor dmg mitigation the different bosses in SSC have? Not that it would matter towards comparing the different items, but it would be helpful to see if the simulator I use, shamulator, is accurate.

Well, here it is:
With my "lower hit rating gear":

AP: 1424
Crit Chance: 25.64%
Hit Rating: 124

With my "higher hit rating gear":
AP: 1402
Crit chance: 25.03
Hit Rating: 163

(yes i have the +9% hit talent specc)

When I tried simulating this i got about the same amount of DPS from both gear sets, with about 0.2% difference. Do you know if this could be true, or could someone link me a better simulator if the one I'm currently using is inaccurate.

EDIT: Or are the differences just so small that it would'nt matter?

 

Mulgero

I must say patch was great. Due spell power, threat reduction and new off-hand (runic -> fool's) I seemed to gain maybe 15-20% more damage overall when including fire totems. Finally catched our boomkin in ZA when including totems in my damage.

What comes to shocks overall damage went from 9-10% to 16-18% even with new off-hand and threat reduction for earlier start for auto-attacking. So what comes speccing elemental compared to resto I think it should yield bit more dps but I still prefer totem range and +3hit melee/spells over anything that elemental can offer. Being draenei my spell hit is capped in pvp and almost in pve against 72 or lower.

What comes to solo pve I didn't have to eat or drink at all in 1h farming session. Just takes time to get used to new water shield mechanism and using shocks more efficiently along fire totems.

 

heatmiza

Since strength and attack power now affect a broader spectrum of our dps, won't that change the EP values? I'm not particularly mathematically inclined, but I would think that the added effect from mental quickness in 2.3 would lower the values of agility, hit rating, haste, etc. in relation to attack power and strength. The reason I say this is since 2.3 launched my damage breakdown is roughly 60% melee and 40% earth shock (we have too many locks to do the flame shock rotation) and since attack power affects all 100% and the other weighted stats only affect that 60% I would imagine there needs to be some degree of an overhaul on the EP values.

 

Shokkina

Hi guys
First of it all i want to thank you. This is the most informative thread i've ever read about mechanics for a single class.

I was looking quite closely to the new stat expertise. I read the first post and the formula but i have some questions about it:

1) Does this formula applies to all melee classes or only shaman? I ask this because my gm sometimes asks me to take a look at our other melee spec/equip to try to maximize our raid dps

2) I don't know if i read that formula the right way. It seems that the first part is to round the numbers on expertise rating (floor(sumofexpertise / 3.95) * 3.95) and the secondo part is to multiply it by the more gain you have respect hit rating. The total is then multiplied by hit rating AEP to tranform it to AEP.
If this is right does it mean that with 45% White damage, 40% Yellow damage and 40% Crit, Expertise rating is valued(if we don't count the rounding problem) (40*1.4 + 45)/45 = 2.24 times the equivalent hit rating?

I hope i made it clear enough and did not ask stupid questions. Thanks for any reply.

 

everwatch

The big sell on Elemental that is often glossed over is the -10% dmg from Fire/Frost/Nature damage. The bonus dps is nice, but the added survivability is nicer still. I've looked at a number of upper geared shaman's WWS's and their Shock damage seems to only be between 8-12% of their total dmg. I've really begun to wonder if one of the reasons a lot of Shaman are not "Pro-Ele" is because they do not upkeep their shocks and fire them off on every rotation/cd possible. I sustain typically 16-17% of my total damage from shocks alone. My shocks have nearly doubled in their dmg from 2.2. I have not seen, nor been told of similar results as to mine yet. Considering this has remained a static raiding fact for me every evening since 2.3 I have to wonder why others have not reported similar observations. Not using shocks as often as possible could result in that, and the opinion that ele spec is not solid. Overall, I agree with your assessment.

Skeleton Jack
http://www.skeletonjack.com/

 

LazyJoe

As Disquette mentionned your parses may not reflect the reality. In fact it seems to me that many rogues are not using all of their potential dps. As an example, we have 4 rogues in my guild, 3 of them are doing reasonable dps and I often compete with them (I used to be a bit behind them, since the patch I should get very close, didn't have the opportunity to raid with them since 2.3 went live), while the 4th rogue is always performing much better, he always is the best melee by 15-20% eventhough he is a bit less geared than the other ones because he mainly plays on week-ends.

So doing 80% of a rogue is a rough estimate (it may be more close to 85% since 2.3 I believe) it is what I generally observed between two equally geared ans skilled players.

 

rava

There are many reasons Kemom isn't "pro-ele".

1: Sustaining ~29 totems/2 minutes limits your globals significantly and you often miss a possible shock timer.

2: I can actually go oom if I don't have shout/might, which I find myself without semi frequently during the 218219 years of doing the same farm content between cycling in people for drops or people jumping at the chance to sit out, so I value Totemic Focus rather highly at around 1800mana/2mins.

3: Where my gear is at hit is nearly outscaling crit and str, Nature's Guidance is amazing with spell/melee hit.

4: Totemic Mastery is the slam and I won't raid without it. Any fight that requires movement it is crucial.

5: I don't care about imp ankh, which is why my other 2 points are in ele.

6: 3 eckstra points in Concussion is swell, 3% more damage to shocks is ~6 dps assuming 1200 average shock(with reverb). I am pretty sure that I can live without 6 dps in favor of the beautiful things in resto.

7: Elemental warding. Big fat meh to that talent. Being specific to three schools and having little overall affect makes this not desirable to me. Hydross, Lurker, Morogrim, Al'ar, Void Reaver, Rage, Naj'entus, Teron, Kael, Azgalor, Archimonde, Supremus, Council, and Illidan are fights where this talent would play a roll, with most of the elemental damage dealt being completely avoidable or being so insignificant that 10% would mean ~200 damage.

8: Call of flame. Global issue again, but a more marginal gain than concussion coming in around ~20 dps to searing.

9: Reverberation. Globals, globals, globals.

It comes down to, as stated before, play style. Play style includes(but not limited to) twisting, survivability, I dare say utility, and personal dps. It's impossible to compare the two specs based on others' WWS, it's something that you need to go up to an identical level 73 mob with an identical raid with identical gear with two different specs. Overall damage %'s are going to fluctuate from spec to spec because you have talents in different trees to improve different aspects of your dps. Of course an elemental sub specc'd shaman is going to have more of his damage from shocks, and of course a resto sub specc'd shaman is going to have more dps from his melee.

/longpost

I'll have a croque monsieur, a paella, two mutton pills, and a stein of mead.

 

Paternoster

First time poster here,
but I can state to have read every single page of the thread and claim to have understood most of it So I'm now hoping to release some of the pressure from the "Gurus" by trying to answer to Shokkinas questions. If I should be totally wrong, please feel free to correct me, but I'll at least try

1) My gut says, that it could be kind of a rule of thumb for other melee until some further investigation of EJs of other classes hit the table. That's because it somehow normalises the white/yellow ratio which is one aspect that is significantly different for DW/Fury Warriors especially. The other constraint coming into my mind is rage generation through hit rating. The fact that almost the same amount of expertise converts a dodge into a hit (under the gerenal assumption that this is the case) as +hit turns a miss into a hit for white damage equals the thing out.
Nevertheless you have to keep in mind that all the thoughts above assume that the <insert your melee class here> is already hit capped on yellow damage through talents/+hit. For non-DWlers the whole debate is pointless, but I think that wasn't what you were referring to.

2) I would agree with you in that case. It seems logical to me, that, asuming you have 50% white and 50% yellow dmg with no crits, expertise is twice as worthy as +hit. Taking into account that yellow dmg is supposed to be a 2 roll system and that a dodge can because of this be converted to a crit, it is even more than twice as worthy.

P.S. @ Malan
I don't know what you would expect to be easier to understand, but an alternative to floor(sumofexpertise/3.95)*3.95 would be sumofexpertise DIV 3.95.

 

Simprider

More WWS from Council -> Archi.

WWS

Seems indeed that ench/resto outweights ench/ele in real fight situations.

 

SentinelBorg

Where are your Firenova Totems? They are absolute king in Hyjal!

 

◊ Malan

Umm, no. 15 divided by 3.95 = 3.79.
Floor( 15/3.95) = 3

Understand the difference? That extra 0.79 expertise is meaningless, it must be stripped off.


I don't see how posting one WWS parse is evidence of anything. Can we stop posting random WWS parses? Comparing DPS or dmg done between different raids and gear setups is pointless.

Vyktianity already has over 75 billion followers. The first verse in his book "Gift of the Wild" is "In the beginning Vyk cast lifebloom and then maul."

 

Paternoster

Um, no ^^
DIV <> to divide something

If you for example calculate 16 DIV 5 you'll get 3. That's because the DIV operation always gives you the integer value of the result while the rest is ignored (not rounded).

But after searching the english wikipedia I realized that the usage of that statement which I was introduced to in my math course doesn't seem to be generally used. So I'm sorry for that suggestion.

 

◊ Malan

Ah, well the rapid google search of "DIV" yielded the definition of "divide by" which would result in real number which is not what we want here. I think that the Floor function is a bit more obvious for the intent.

Vyktianity already has over 75 billion followers. The first verse in his book "Gift of the Wild" is "In the beginning Vyk cast lifebloom and then maul."

 

evilution

Sticking my nose in here. On VR post patch I am doing about 20% more damage than pre-patch. However I did respec 16/45/0. Searing totem does some really nice dps hitting for about 230 on average every 2 seconds.

Pre-2.3 on VR i usually hovered around 320,000 damage done and had to battle anhk each time.

Post 2.3 I did 393,000 damage and never pulled agro.

All fights had around the same Raid DPS / fight time.

Coincidentally it appears that yellow damage attacks now have the same crit rate as other attacks? Pre patch WF was always about 5% lower, after patch it is equal with melee crit.

All in all I am very happy with this patch.

 

peer

Really? Even after the patch, my Stormstrikes and Windfuries almost always have a crit rate 4-6% lower than my white attacks.

 

Mox

Ye I understand were you are coming from, but like I said in my post it was a farm raid, no one was using consumables or pots etc, I could have easily gotten another 100 dps with a flask + haste pots. On the note of specs, the rogue is trying out mace hemo spec for raiding, our sword rogues are on holiday atm. And you can't really compare a rogue with legendaries + maxxed out group buffs to a farm raid tbh. The point of my post wasn't "lol I own the shit outta rogues" it was to point out the damage gap isn't so huge anymore.

Just as a note tho, rage winterchill is a horrid fight for comparison between 2 sets of logs, 1 may have gotten several death & decay on the melee compared to none or very few on the other.

Oh and no, no where near 15% extra dps. Maybe 10%, I was doing 1300 before the patch and pretty much 1400 now without much extra effort* (effort meaning not really tight shock cycle/full buffs/not including totems).

I'll get another log from next weeks BT/Hyjal clear and politely ask the rogues to stop being nubs :P

 

Mkael

True resto offers some nice extras, the decreased cd on ankh and health increase is a boon. But when it comes to totem cost I dont twist and I dont have any plans on doing so, tried it a few times and run out of mana quickly so in the cases it would be usable (imo) would be in nuke occasions but even in those cases its a short time needed and planned correctly with SR and pots one doesnt loose too much. Also itll most likely be fixed sometime soonish so nothing to build your playstyle around.

Dont take this as twist bash coz it aint cudos to those who do it its just not for me.

Anyway, the point of the question was wether the loss of DPS from loosing 3%hit is less then what is gained by the increased shock&fire damage and I agree with D that it most likely is, now if this is true for T6 raiding as well dunno but the increase in AP also affect the spell damage so I would assume so.

Now wether this is testable or not, you can only speculate getting two 100% identical raids except your spec will not happen so one can only theorycraft around it.

PS: atm I dont have any mana issues, true I pot now and then if I need but rarely and I shock whenever the cd is up.

Regards, Mkael

 

justinr

I picked up a rising tide and put it on it last week. The proc rate is very high but I don't have any logs to show for it. Our member that usually posts them is having some issues with the website. My dps seems comparable to when I used mongoose, but without WWS its hard to tell.

It is fun in pvp though :P damage increase not affected by resiliance. Did you ever do your raid with it? I think we're doing more BT tonight and I probably get a log.

 

• Disquette

Thanks a bunch for the reply. It would indeed be interesting when people are going all out, what the ordering is. On the other hand, Yo!'s sim *should* show our max theoretical dps. Similarly, the rogue dps spreadsheet from their forum thread should show theirs. I'm in a rush now, but it might be interesting to see how the dps comparison *should* be given similar gear and effort.

----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan

 

Fluffiez