Pitbuller

8.48 and 4.24 is EP values for all same speed weapons(assuming equal wf procs). Purely theory based. Only thing what mess things up is how windfury procs divided beetween mh and oh.

EDIT: Yo's simulator give same dps to 12.56ap or 0.741dps to mh and 1.482dps(no oh penalty) to oh.
EDIT2: The whole wDPS is now 10% higher than its should be becouse of mental quickness.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Toots Hepcat

Isn't the purpose of EP from weapon DPS is to help us understand how much additional EP (from stats, procs, etc) a lower DPS weapon would need to have to exceed the usefulness of a higher DPS weapon?

Since we know that slower weapons with the SAME DPS as faster ones contribute more to overall DPS, the EP MUST be different for different weapon speeds. If this weren't true, I'd have offhanded the [Guile of Khoraazi], rather than vendoring it once I discovered this thread.

 

Toots Hepcat

Not quite at T5, so whatever badge pants I get will be a substantial upgrade. Assuming T4 doesn't drop tonight (my melee would love +12 STR).

I was thinking [Shifting Camouflage Pants] would be nice for when Executioner procs, but comparing them with my personal EP factoring in Executioner as a full time buff (for s&g), [Shallow-grave Trousers] are still way better.

Sigh...was hoping I'd have at least one mail upgrade with this patch.

 

Malan

The leather badge rewards are pretty superior to the mail ones overall. Slightly annoying since none of the leather I was considering as an in-between upgrade had any -Armor on it, but all the mail does (but would be a downgrade in most cases).

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Illundai

The only reason my parse is there to illustrate the proc rate, which is the important part for a lot of people I presume? I might be dumb or retarded, but since when can you run the sim and add a value for a proc without knowing it's uptime? From what I can read in the Executioner thread, no one even knows how much PPM it is, or how much the proc chance is. It wildly varies, not to mention all the people in that thread are warriors or rogues.

So for those who didn't really pay attention to my parse, my Executioner had similar amount of procs to Mongoose, however the annoying part is that the refreshing of the buff isn't counted by WWS, so yah it's probably best to assume same ppm and procrate as Mongoose. And if you haven't read the other thread, the proc % is estimated to be about 5.1% - 7.4% and a ppm of 1.09 - 1.51. But they have wildy different numbers in between tests with weapons with different weapon speed, and so forth.

Pretty much means that it's very hard to calculate the difference between Mongoose/Mongoose and Mongoose/Executioner. From personal experience, it's not worse at least. If it's better or not is going to depend on your own EP values and preferences. I think I'll be sticking to it, just only for the glow already!

Yes, Death Knight tanks are/were too good in 3.0.x. Having 38k HP, 76.81% Avoidance (Miss incl.) and not gimping your threat in the first tier of gear is broken. (Yes this is clickable)

 

Pitbuller

Wdps EP isnt for comparing different speed weapons.
If you use faster but same speeded weapons your dps will fall but ep value for ap isnt change same thing goes for Wdps ep.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Ilmatar

Just out of curiosity, was my post regarding Executioner a month ago totally off the mark?

 

Mox

You also have to consider the benefit of gear on mongoose too, using my values from Yo's sim I get 315.16 for mongoose and 302.4 for executioner.

Malan, assuming same proc rate as mongoose what would be the constant passive -armor for executioner? (useless at working that stuff out).

 

Pitbuller

If executioner have same proc rate than mongoose. Uptime is then 37%(with Yo's simulator default values)
0.37 * 840 = 310.8 passive armor penetration.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Toots Hepcat

Since armor penetration gets better the more of it you have, I don't think you can fairly consider Executioner in terms of a constant passive amount. +840 for 20s per minute would be ever so slightly better than simply +280 straight up (although to be honest, it takes a ton of AP to move my stat weights significantly in simulation).

I picked up Executioner yesterday (out of convenience -- had no enchant on my upgraded hammer, no guildy has Mongoose even though we've brought down Moroes a hojillion times but we got Executioner on the first kill). I can only say it beats the piss out of Crusader.

 

Malan

If you're not willing to consider it as a passive amount than there is zero basis for comparison between any proc and a passive effect. You have to reduce procs to a passive in order to compare them. And yes, -Armor is better the more of it you have, and the sim will reflect that but a mathematical comparison cannot.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Ilmatar

I agree that the procs shouldn't be reduced to a passive benefit before comparison, but if the proc rate is the same, and the buff duration is the same, can't we directly compare the enchants? If not than my post was dumb, but if so there should be a point at which Executioner > Mongoose. The stat weights for your gear would need to be determined via simulation, but after a bit of sim runs with people picking up -armor, we should be able to come up with a general rule about when it is better.

This is my noob attempt:

Mongoose: 120agi, 2% haste (31.52 rating)
Executioner: 840 -armor

a = EP for 1 point of Agi
h = EP for 1 point of Haste
p = EP for 1 point of -Armor

They give the same benefit when:
120a + 31.52h = 840p
(120a + 31.52h)/p = 840
(30(4a + 1.05h))/p = 840 (Rounded haste rating down)
(4a + 1.05h)/p = 28

So if you take your stat weights and plug in the values, and you get a number > 28, Executioner is superior.

 

Malan

Well even using the standard EP values that makes Executioner better.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Bargle

With the formula you gave, decreasing values of p (armor penetration AEP) will give a higher result, so it should be results < 28 mean executioner is superior.

 

Toots Hepcat

ed.

 

Toots Hepcat

Since what we really want is to solve for the minimum EP value for armor penetration that will make Exec equal Mongoose:

(4a + 1.05h) / 28 = p(equal worth)

Plugging in the T4 EP:

(4*1.74 + 1.05*1.28) / 28= p
(6.96 + 1.4144) / 28 = p
8.3744 / 28 = p
.29 = p

Lo and behold, that's higher than the T4 EP for Armor Penetration (.22). For T5, it works out to .34

Looks like I made a bad choice.

 

Ilmatar

Thanks for the fixes. Apologies for the errors. I just wanted to move the Executioner vs. Mongoose debate in a more constructive direction.

Moogle mentioned, in a previous post, that off hand was the better choice for the enchant since the hit which procs the effect does not gain the benefit from that effect. This is a bit from a WWS parse:
It appears that the Lightning Speed (Mongoose) proc occurs before the Windfury hit. So I am thinking that, if you want to mix enchants, it actually doesn't matter which hand has the Executioner proc, with regard to the next windfury hit. It still stands to reason that a normal melee hit will not gain the benefit.

 

Malan

Correct. Which means that the "Low End EP" numbers would list Executioner as *worse* than Mongoose. Makes sense because there is no other -Armor at that level to use. Early T5 values (Our standardized EP value) list it as pretty damn close to Mongoose. And once you're hitting T6 content the -Armor EP value in the sim hits 0.33 for almost everyone, and at that point Executioner becomes better.

[e] I just saw Stonebreaker totem proc in Hyjal off of a magic immune banshee. Looks like even if the shock is resisted or immune we can still get the buff. (Which by the way is really annoying how it looks like BoW constantly refreshing on me)

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

rava

I think that the banshees are unique, because even with the magic immune shell you can still ES their curse to interrupt it. Could have been changed but on test I went out to SMV and shocked that banished demon for about 10 minutes straight without seeing a proc.

Full price for gum!? That dog won't hunt, Monsignor.

 

Sebudai

Banshees aren't immune to magic. They just cast Anti-Magic Shell, which absorbs magic damage.

 

rava

er.. yea

We took the week off of raiding for the holidays and I'm already slipping.

Full price for gum!? That dog won't hunt, Monsignor.

 

Malan

I did notice that it still procs off Rank 1 shocks which is nice.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

• Raut

Hm. Is there a fixed amount of AC on bosses or at least a common amount on most bosses? And does the damage reduction from AC on a boss scale like on a player?

Just wondering if a boss can have a large amount of AC, it gives a scaling damage reduction like on players and thus removing a fixed amount of armor will be very in-effective on high AC bosses, and very good on AC light bosses.

Baby, you can hold my balls.

13:17 < Kalroth> gays on men tv? I love that channel

 

vorda

On the first page of this forum: [RAID] Boss armor values

 

• Raut

Bah. I have to improve my search skills.

And from the empirical evidence in that thread it looks like most bosses are around the same AC so calculations are pretty stable. Sorry for the wasted bandwidth.

Baby, you can hold my balls.

13:17 < Kalroth> gays on men tv? I love that channel