tzenes

While you're right we have to convert executioner into a passive amount, you're incorrect in stating that we can't compute this amount. We can.

The algorithm works as follows
Given
armor pen = 2600 (5 sunders)
mob armor = 7700
mob level = 73
uptime = .25

We get that, while it is up, executioner provides a 0.036306% increase to dps that takes into account armor.
We then multiply this by the uptime to get the passive increase: 0.00908
We then calculate how much armor pen is needed to produce this increase with 100% uptime.
at 5100, thats 218.

This is far less than the 240 value we originally used.

Infact, if you preform this calculation with 0 sunders up, the value is only 217.
If we preform this on a mob with 1000 armor, the value is only 221

I would there for suggest we consider executioner as a passive 218-219 increase in armor pen.

 

Malan

I think you misunderstood what I meant. I was saying that the value of Armor Penetration changes based on how much you currently have available. If you have 0 Armor Penetration, an item with 100 Armor Penetration is worth less than if you had 1000 Armor Penetration already, because the amount of damage reduction shaved off is much higher from 1000 to 1100 than from 0 to 100. That's what I'm saying we can't compute if we're comparing Executioner vs Mongoose in a vacuum.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

tzenes

Thats ok, I was just trying to be rhetorical.

 

Nite_Moogle

This is really the crux of it. The performance of Executioner will be drastically different in a solo environment (doing daily quests) versus PVP (against lower player AC values) versus raids (heavily debuffed NPCs). Unfortunately this is a very difficult comparison to make right now since Executioner's proc rate has yet to be fully nailed down. I would be extremely surprised if Mongoose isn't the better enchant for solo play, but I'd also be very surprised if Executioner doesn't prove to be a superior enchant for raiding if you take full advantage of Sunder, Faerie Fire and Curse of Recklessness and have any amount of -AC on your gear.

 

Nemaa

I don't really know if I can rely on the EP values Yo's sim gave. I tryed to find out how much armor penetration do I need to be sure that executioner will be better than mongoose on one of my weapons. I input my data and set hours to 10,000. Increasing the base value of armor penetration did not increase the EP value of it. It stayed at 0.29 even after +400 armor penetration. I don't think gaining 400 armor penetration is not big enough.

 

Mox

I think the sim may under estimate armor penetration, from my runs it takes executioner being 350 -armor (passive) untill it equals mongoose enchant. According to the boss armor thread 300 -armor should be [300 ArP: 2.16%/1.95%] @ 2190 mob armor, the sim comes out at 1.86% so thats a 0.3% difference.

 

Malan

Are you comparing Execution/Mongoose to Mongoose/Mongoose? Or Execution/none to Mongoose/none?

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Mox

Thats with mongoose on MH, none on OH. to test the % increases of -armor

2190 boss armor, 0 penetration.
2190 boss armor, 300 penetration.

edit, when I was comparing mongoose to executioner, I did mongoose/mongoose, then ran mongoose/none, and gradually increased the -armor value untill it equalled my mon/mon dps, and it took 350 -armor to get there...

 

tzenes

did you remember shocks make up 5-10% of your damage?

2.16 *.9 = 1.94
what would make a .08% difference, which could be accounted for by statistical deviation.

 

Mox

The shock dps remained the same, 241 for all runs. Therefore the only thing increasing would be physical dmg.

So no.

Just for clarity, Ive done the runs again and i'll show my results.

1880 AP/33.98% crit/20.03% hit

0 -armor + Mongoose/Mongoose my dps is 1656
300 -armor + Mongoose/Mongoose my dps is 1689 (Thats a 1.95% damage increase)

0 -armor + Mongoose/None my dps is 1622
300 -armor + Mongoose/None my dps is 1653 (Thats a 1.87% damage increase)
350 -armor + Mongoose/None my dps is 1658, finally equal to Mongoose/Mongoose.

So, either the sim is undervaluing armor penetration or you need to stack alot more before it's worth getting executioner.

edit, seems the sim has the correct value for armor penetration, but my point on the amount needed for executioner to be equal to mongoose remains.

 

Malan

I'm wondering if the proper methodology would be to match None/None (with passive -Armor for executioner) to Mongoose/None.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

tzenes

I don't want to get into a long debate about this, but if I understand you correctly

You saw a 1.84% increase in your total dps (melee + shocks)
and you expected a 2.16% increase in your melee dps, which should be a 1.92% increase in your total dps

 

Mox

Oh, lol doh. yes your right nm totally forgot that even tho shock dps stays the same the % of it changes as your other damage does. I just worked it out taking off shock/totem dps and it comes out to a 2.2% increase in dps from 300 armor penetration.

So yes the sim is using the correct values for -armor.

 

tzenes

glad I could help

 

Malan

Ok I just ran a series of very short sim runs checking the difference between my current stats with None/None enchant, Mongoose/None enchant, and None/None (300 passive -Armor). I was hoping that this would illustrate only the difference between putting Mongoose or Executioner on a single hand. If Executioner is truly worth around -300 armor, it came out as a consistent 2% increase in DPS over Mongoose. As I said though I did short sim runs, not very scientific at all. Just ran 100 hours about 10 times for each case, checking to see that the values were consistent each time and then just eyeballed an average.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Mox

I did those runs too out of interest,

None/None = 1588 dps
None/None with 240 -armor = 1612 dps
Mongoose/None = 1622 dps

Stacking up -armor doesn't really help its case much either as it also increases mongoose/none dps. Think maybe a better model is required for executioner.. either that or Yo updates his sim :/

 

tzenes

What we need is the average % uptime.

at 37%, executioner is worth 321
at 25%, executioner is worth 219

thats over 100 armor pen in difference.

 

Malan

You're right, and the problem is listed above - the Executioner thread has test results that wildly vary for the uptime.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Sufferings

Talking about uptime of executioner:

I have been testing this with MH Mongoose (dragonstrike) and OH Exec (Syhpon). Last night we cleared the first 4 in Hyjal and then Highwarlord/Supremus in BT.

I included all but Supremus as I was running in and out constantly. I died on Highwarlord around 25%, but when I popped, I was retarded and did it to close to a shield and the shield pop one shot me :P I included it however, since I was constantly hitting him until I died.

This is what I found, as far as uptime for this enchant (WWS included):

Rage Winterchill: 28.57% uptime
Anetheron: 34.7% uptime
Kaz'Rogal: 28.57% uptime
Azgalor: 24.19% uptime
High Warlord Naj'entus: 26.04% uptime


So, pretty much for last night I was geting around a 26-28% uptime, with the Anetheron kill be a little higher than average and Azgalor being lower than average. I can't explain a reason for the Anetheron being high, but I don't have enough FR to stay in on Azgalor the whole time, which is probably why those numbers are lower. I stayed active because I would back out and then chain lighting and lightning bolt till I could go back in.

Anyways, I know this isn't by any means the end all be all of this enchants uptime, but hopefully this info with other logs will narrow the actual uptime of the enchant.

EDIT: Of course, WWS will not account if it procced and refreshed an existing buff. So, the percentages could be slightly higher.

 

Shawndreya

A bit off topic, and I'm not entirely sure if it's been ocvered or not but I searched and got nothing for it. Anyways, with the new spell damage talents, wouldn't STR and AP be worth more AEP in item stat weights now?

 

Pitbuller

Str and ap ep values are flat 2(2.2) and 1.
Other stats ep value go roughly 10% down becouse of mental quickness.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Ilmatar

Since we are equating other stats to AP, Str will always be worth 2.2, AP will always be worth 1.0. Other stats should decrease in value compared to these two stats to reflect their effect on our spell damage.

 

Bullworth

Elemental Shield changes Looks like they are changing water shield again to be something akin to a passive mp/5 buff. The change to a 10 minute buff is a god send on my middle click though and our global cool down.. Will have to wait and see if it’s as affective as the current spell for enhancement shamans.

 

Malan

The change says that it will still provide the exact same mana/time as the current implementation, so yes it's the same thing. Just less refreshing to do.

Regarding AP/Strength - AP is the basic measurement of the EP system. It will always be worth 1.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Shawndreya

So the values on front page are up to date then?