Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 207

Harem · 11/23/07, 3:37 PM

Originally Posted by Opis

Is my gear really that awful? I realize that I'm not at Mount Hyjal yet, but my findings are somewhat incongruent with yours. I don't have a current WWS log since 2.3, but I have one prior, from Gruul's. My gear wasn't quite as good as it is now, but I was over 900 dps even then. (I don't know the public link to it, so I took a picture. I'll replace it with a link once the guy who pays for ours provides us with a link that won't get him banned for my posting.)

WWS

(For the record, I was 0/42/19 at the time. I only posted this for reference.)

Gruul has 3.4 million health. That's a bad parse.

edit: I appear to be repeating what has already been said.

aroma · 11/23/07, 3:54 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

How the hell does a shaman get a DPS time of 96% on Gruul?

How does a mob with 3.4M health die at 2.7M?

And where's your second tank?

And where are the missing 6 people?

Toots Hepcat · 11/23/07, 4:46 PM

Beowulf: I ran some numbers too, and it looked like I could be doing more damage if I re-rolled elemental/enh.

Ignoring sketchy WWS procs or comparisons of raw data, let's boil down the premise here: We all know that the first 9% of to-hit is critical to hit capping yellow damage. We can get this from talents. However, there is no law saying that this 9% HAS to come from talents. If your gear has more than 48 hit rating on it, you can drop Nature's Guidance and still be hit-capped for yellow damage.

Question remains, is it worthwhile to do so?

Resto vs Elemental
1.03 white + yellow + 1.03 shock
vs.
white + yellow + 1.2 (reverb) * 1.05 (concussion) * shock

1.03 white + 1.03 shock
vs.
white + 1.26 shock

Let's take white & shock percentages of 45% and 15% with a resto spec. Theoretical fight of 100k damage. We have 45k and 15k. Untalented, these would be 43.7k and 14.6k, a decrease of 1.7k. Without NG, the fight would have been 98.3k total damage, meaning resto added 1.72%. Now consider elemental -- shock damage goes up to 18.3k, an increase of 3.7k to 102k total damage. Elemental added 3.76%. Elemental wins. The difference, in this example, is about 2.04%.

Turns out you need to have a ratio of untalented white damage to untalented shock damage of greater than than 7:1 for resto to out dps elemental. There are some fights where this is possible (due to silence effects, need to save shocks for interrupts) but not many.

(For extra credit, compare 1.03 * fire totems vs 1.15 * fire totems)

I won't be re-speccing: I don't want to give up 40min reincarnate, .5s faster heals OR bigger totem radius for a 2% damage increase. Sure my raid doesn't either. If these aren't issues in your raid style, by all means respec. It looks promising.

Quick recap on the assumptions made here: yellow damage hit capped from gear, 0s shock/SS lag, no shocks or SS lost to the GCD, lag between WF procs from decreased hit not appreciable. If any of these assumptions are false, the playing field changes to Resto's favor.

Beowolf · 11/23/07, 5:37 PM

Toots, as I showed, when you factor in the totem damage, your actually getting a 5% increase in overall damage. The only change you give up is the loss of the 10 yard extra range on your totem, the 25% mana reduction for totems is a non issue with the new Elemental Focus talent trivializing our mana consumption on shocks. As it is, I could stop using healing stream and start using the mana totem and make up the entire difference with minimal impact to my group.

Now the only question that remains is this: is 5% more damage worth it to you to give up an extra 10 yards on your totems?

On most fights, the bosses do not move very much, if at all, at least from my experience on the first 6 bosses of BT and all the bosses of MH. The totem radius is therefor a non-issue entirely. And who uses our long heal in more than 1% of all our dps situations? If you need to do an 'oh shit' heal, you use LHW, presumably because you have the proc up from your t5 bonus anyway. I currently dont even have the .5 seconds faster casting time on Healing Wave: I cant think of ANY wipe that would have been saved if I had it.

I would really like to hear some more from the other more established posters here. It seems to me that with the changes in 2.3, the odds are HEAVILY in favor of elemental/enhancement once you get above 2200 AP on average raid buffed.

Edit: This is the build I am thinking of switching too tonight: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

rava · 11/23/07, 6:11 PM

Originally Posted by Beowolf

25% mana reduction for totems is a non issue

If you don't totem twist. Which, despite popular belief, is still incredibly viable and still isn't corrected after months of being acknowledged.

Originally Posted by Beowolf

Now the only question that remains is this: is 5% more damage worth it to you to give up an extra 10 yards on your totems?

On most fights, the bosses do not move very much, if at all, at least from my experience on the first 6 bosses of BT and all the bosses of MH. The totem radius is therefor a non-issue entirely. And who uses our long heal in more than 1% of all our dps situations? If you need to do an 'oh shit' heal, you use LHW, presumably because you have the proc up from your t5 bonus anyway. I currently dont even have the .5 seconds faster casting time on Healing Wave: I cant think of ANY wipe that would have been saved if I had it.

I'm going to be a bit of a dick here because people are completely oblivious to how totem range impacts the class. Assuming you are all lazy and defeatists about twisting any fight that involves mobility is going to be a hindrance for your WF totem. 4/5 in Hyjal and 4/9 in BT are fights that require high mobility, and the likelihood of being outside of melee range for <10 seconds is rather high. Your group will miss WF pulses and lose the buff for <5 seconds rather frequently; because, remember, an untalented WF totem has the range of a shock.

.5 sec off of healing wave isn't anything spectacular, I use it on Azgalor when my pot/healthstone/bandage are on cooldown and getting the bigger heal off quicker is more important. Otherwise, I'd agree, it isn't great but it's T1, what do you eckspect.

I really fail to see how this argument is still happening. Playstyles differ from person to person, and nobody is going to be won over save for random people that filter over through the WoW forums. DPS vs Utility, friends.

Nemaa · 11/23/07, 6:44 PM

I prefer having 2 points in healing focus as well, before 2.3 I used to have 5/5. It's just annoying to get interruption on heals. I know I'm not supposed to rely on my own heals but again it's about different playstyles. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not playing an enhancement healer shaman, I just value 2 points on healing focus more than +2% shock damage or -10% totem cost.

And what about high-end gear where one shaman can have a sustained 1500-1600 DPS? Beowolf, your calculations are based on the 1050 DPS. With better gear you get higher percentage of melee damage, that means Nature's Guidance worth more. There should be a point where 3% melee/spell hit gets better than +22% shock damage and +15% fire totems damage.

Rava: use alt-120

Opis · 11/23/07, 7:10 PM

Possibly, Nemaa, but seeing as how our spell damage now scales with our AP from gear and buffs, that may very well be a long way down the road.

rava · 11/23/07, 7:44 PM

Originally Posted by Opis

Possibly, Nemaa, but seeing as how our spell damage now scales with our AP from gear and buffs, that may very well be a long way down the road.

Your other stats are going to scale much faster than your spell damage. In my raiding gear I have 400 more attack power than you, which is 120 spell damage, or 51.432 damage ES and 80.4 damage on FS. From pre kara to nearly ideal gear outside of a ring and trinket slot I have gained 10.2864 dps on ES and 16.08 dps on FS with reverb. On the other hand, I have gained 10% crit, 37 haste, 300 armor penetration, 400 attack power, 1 expertise, and lost nearly 100 hit rating. These other gains are going to vastly out scale the 10-16 dps that I have gained from 120 spell damage with my 400 additional attack power.

My armory is showing me in T6 from my 3v3 enhancement endeavor, so armory comparisons aren't going to work too well with the gear it's showing me with.

Bragor · 11/23/07, 7:47 PM

@Opis : Which in the end you aren't providing any proof of this measure.

2.6% increase in dps VS Versality.

Most Shamans will go with versality seeing that we aren't a dps class at the end but a support class.

Yes our dps is important but is it so important that you must endanger the buff durations on your group for a bit more EPEEN ?

Grammy · 11/23/07, 8:02 PM

While looking at the math regarding the Stonebreaker's Totem, it looked like it hadn't been taken into account that the increase in AP per proc would affect the next shock's spell damage (if you are casting shock every [untalented] cooldown). I have to say I'm ignorant of the spell damage coefficient of shock spells, but 110AP = 33 spell damage, even though only one shock spell could get the bonus spell damage per proc-- this probably would not affect the math in the post greatly, since you would have to be shocking every cooldown for a shock spell to get benefit from the proc... but is it worth taking this other bonus into consideration making Stonebreaker's Totem an even clearer choice for best relic slot item; i.e. if I always make sure to shock after a proc, is the uptime needed to break even with Totem of the Astral Winds even lower?

ChaguraED · 11/23/07, 8:23 PM

Grammy,

You have to recall that Shocks only get 42% of +damage added to them (they are treated as 1.5 seconds for coefficient purposes). Thus, the next shock would only receive about 14 damage.

It may not be that large of a tipping point.

Beowolf · 11/23/07, 8:44 PM

Originally Posted by rava

If you don't totem twist. Which, despite popular belief, is still incredibly viable and still isn't corrected after months of being acknowledged.

They already announced that they are going to 'fix' totem twisting. As soon as that happened, I cut my melee group cold on this option, with our guild leaders blessings. Hell, several prominent posters on this thread also said they stopped Totem Twisting. Why? Because its a CRUTCH. In all honesty, you cant even debate this point because its going to be fixed, most likely when patch 2.4 comes out (new combat window and mechanics).

And even if you continue to totem twist, exactly how much mana do you save? If I recall, its something like 100 mana every 10-12 seconds. I can do some boss fights without ever even using SR, and I highly doubt your mana consumption is enough to warrant this. Drop a mana spring totem and make up the difference. End of discussion from my perspective.

Originally Posted by rava

I'm going to be a bit of a dick here because people are completely oblivious to how totem range impacts the class. Assuming you are all lazy and defeatists about twisting any fight that involves mobility is going to be a hindrance for your WF totem. 4/5 in Hyjal and 4/9 in BT are fights that require high mobility, and the likelihood of being outside of melee range for <10 seconds is rather high. Your group will miss WF pulses and lose the buff for <5 seconds rather frequently; because, remember, an untalented WF totem has the range of a shock.

This is a completely back asswards way of looking at the totem range. If the melee needs to move far enough to where they are 20 yards away from your totems (which should be right next to a boss anyway) then they fuking aren't doing any kind of melee DPS at the time anyway. 40% enhancement of 0 melee dps is still 0 melee dps.

Originally Posted by rava

.5 sec off of healing wave isn't anything spectacular, I use it on Azgalor when my pot/healthstone/bandage are on cooldown and getting the bigger heal off quicker is more important. Otherwise, I'd agree, it isn't great but it's T1, what do you eckspect.

No disagreements here. As I said, I use it on fewer than 1% of all fight time in a given week :P

Originally Posted by rava

I really fail to see how this argument is still happening. Playstyles differ from person to person, and nobody is going to be won over save for random people that filter over through the WoW forums. DPS vs Utility, friends.

Except I didn't just 'filter over through the WoW forums'. I mathematically established just how much more damage you will do with elemental talents instead of restoration talents. A 5%+ difference in DPS for anyone who is in MH/BT is a very serious consideration. And as you said, play styles differ from person to person, so why then do you think we should only tell the 'filtered shamans' that one spec is better because you happen to be the one who prefers it? Thats hardly a choice at all, more like bludgeoning a spec down their throats.

The only REAL argument in this discussion is how often do you find yourselves moving out of range of totems during boss fights. So lets make a list of high end (T6) moving encounters:

MH:

Winterchill*
Az'Galor*

BT:

Supremus*
RoS (?)
Illidan Council (?)
Illidan (?)

I put a question mark up because I havent done those fights and don't know :P

Looking at this list, on at least THREE of those fights* when the melee moves (and usually not the boss), they are out of range of dpsing anyway and don't receive any benefit from totems regardless. Your enhanced totem range means nothing in these cases. Now I'm not trying to be a dick either, but I think your entire mentality in regards to raid encounters is stuck in the SSC/TK pre-2.3 patch mode, and your dismissing this option out right without examining the facts.

What say you?

Beowolf · 11/23/07, 9:03 PM

Originally Posted by Nemaa

And what about high-end gear where one shaman can have a sustained 1500-1600 DPS? Beowolf, your calculations are based on the 1050 DPS. With better gear you get higher percentage of melee damage, that means Nature's Guidance worth more. There should be a point where 3% melee/spell hit gets better than +22% shock damage and +15% fire totems damage.

Very rarely is this ever the case. Even the best geared shamans will only be pulling around 1200 DPS on the majority of boss fights. Anyone who tells you they consistently do these kinds of DPS numbers is either pulling your leg, or failing to mention its consistently only on Teron Gorefiend. They might even be including their FIRE TOTEMS in their DPS numbers! Heck, I myself do around 1200-1250 on Teron Gorefiend, but I didn't mention that for my calculations :P But we should keep in mind that those kind of DPS numbers are generally gained by shamans with an extreme amount of AP, such as ones who only use the orange/purple gems to get a meta gem bonus and put in str gems in the rest regardless of socket bonuses. These same shamans will be getting 30% of that extra AP in spell damage anyway, so things scale quite nicely!

On an unrelated note, I for one chose the trade skills that give me the 'edge' over other melees: I have 380 JCing and 375 enchanting. I also pick up the 10 ap crystals from the noob Draenei quest and Scrolls of Str V, seeing how they stack with elixirs and food :P

Boro · 11/23/07, 9:12 PM

Both specs have positives and negatives: I did a whole MH/BT run last week 2/45/14 and this week I am gonna to a whole MH/BT run 16/45/00, I will look at my parses on WWS and decide which is best for the raid and check feedback on totem ranges. Play style isn't that different to be honest in my opinion.

Running sims as I have found is great it gives indicative values for 'fluffy bunny land' and they are extremely useful; however, translation to the real game world of WoW is what makes this game interesting.

I like 2.3 its created a number of different things to try, so go try it I say. Its not as simple as right and wrong, better or worst its about what works for you and your role in the raid.

rava · 11/23/07, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by Beowolf

They already announced that they are going to 'fix' totem twisting. As soon as that happened, I cut my melee group cold on this option, with our guild leaders blessings. Hell, several prominent posters on this thread also said they stopped Totem Twisting. Why? Because its a CRUTCH. In all honesty, you cant even debate this point because its going to be fixed, most likely when patch 2.4 comes out (new combat window and mechanics).

And even if you continue to totem twist, exactly how much mana do you save? If I recall, its something like 100 mana every 10-12 seconds. I can do some boss fights without ever even using SR, and I highly doubt your mana consumption is enough to warrant this. Drop a mana spring totem and make up the difference. End of discussion from my perspective.

This is a completely back asswards way of looking at the totem range. If the melee needs to move far enough to where they are 20 yards away from your totems (which should be right next to a boss anyway) then they fuking aren't doing any kind of melee DPS at the time anyway. 40% enhancement of 0 melee dps is still 0 melee dps.

No disagreements here. As I said, I use it on fewer than 1% of all fight time in a given week :P

Except I didn't just 'filter over through the WoW forums'. I mathematically established just how much more damage you will do with elemental talents instead of restoration talents. A 5%+ difference in DPS for anyone who is in MH/BT is a very serious consideration. And as you said, play styles differ from person to person, so why then do you think we should only tell the 'filtered shamans' that one spec is better because you happen to be the one who prefers it? Thats hardly a choice at all, more like bludgeoning a spec down their throats.

The only REAL argument in this discussion is how often do you find yourselves moving out of range of totems during boss fights. So lets make a list of high end (T6) moving encounters:

MH:

Winterchill*
Az'Galor*

BT:

Supremus*
RoS (?)
Illidan Council (?)
Illidan (?)

I put a question mark up because I havent done those fights and don't know :P

Looking at this list, on at least THREE of those fights* when the melee moves (and usually not the boss), they are out of range of dpsing anyway and don't receive any benefit from totems regardless. Your enhanced totem range means nothing in these cases. Now I'm not trying to be a dick either, but I think your entire mentality in regards to raid encounters is stuck in the SSC/TK pre-2.3 patch mode, and your dismissing this option out right without examining the facts.

What say you?

If you really want to play this game, I'll bite. Eyonix posted on twisting well over a month ago, nothing on new PTR to stop it, and 2.4 ptr is at least a week off, the patch itself another month after that. At least a full two months after the announcement it *might* be fixed. As far as the crutch statement, I guess I hit a nerve there? I did a quick search for crutch and nobody has mentioned that terminology, and from what I remember it was mostly relieved people because they did not like twisting and the position that it left them in. I'll argue it until it's corrected because it is an incredibly powerful tool.

118/10, 41/60, 84/120 = 66/5 gained from totemic focus, add in shocks, stormstrike, and a 6200 mana pool then you're looking at an empty bar of mana that still relies heavily on SR.

How is it a backwards way of looking at totem range? It's a unique perspective that is often ignored, the application of windfury itself. I thought I was descriptive enough in my first explanation, but I suppose that I wasn't. When you dodge abilities with large range, ie Death and Decay, Infernals on melee, Rain of Fire, running back in from Airburst, attacking Supremus in kite phase(not advised unless you can eat a 10k hit), eating Bloodboils, Fatal Attraction, dodging consecrates, flamestrikes, and blizzards, running in/out with parasite, redoing totems during flames phase, and other random aspects of Illidan you run the risk of outranging the buff at a bad time resulting in completely missing it for a pulse.

Stuck in the SSC/TK era? Are you trying to troll me?

You must be joking about the 1200 dps comment, I haven't used consumables in two months and my last WWS has Hyjal boss DPS at ~1500 without fire totems and shocks making up ~8% of my damage. My last Gorefiend was 1650 without consumables, battle shout, or blood frenzy. /shrug Leatherworking is a far better option than JC/Enchanting will ever be, especially after the buff to drums. I look for adding the edge to my raid, not myself.

I'm not dismissing elemental, but the argument has been going on for pages now, and I see it as a pointless one. And, yes, I'd rather have random WoW Forumers see one spec as better than the other so I don't check the thread and see 5 new posts that say, "LOLLOOKATMYSPECIHAVEELEMENTALDEVASTATION".

Malan · 11/23/07, 10:23 PM

Increased totem range is a convenience to the shaman, not the group. It means that I can drop my totems in a central location and they're in the correct spot for every portion of an encounter. This means on Hyjal Trash I can drop them and cover the AoE packs as well as the CCd Necros as the melee group moves from Necros to Aboms/Ghouls/Spiders. On BT trash, same thing. On Akama it means that I can drop my totems in the center of the platform and the cover the entire platform as we move around it. Same thing on Hydross, Vashj, Kael, etc etc. It saves me the hassle of realizing that we've moved away from the totems and having to redrop.

beetlejuice · 11/23/07, 10:28 PM

I just want to mention, that even when you maximize the damage output of your shocks with talents from elemental tree, it won't really affect your damage output alot, in overall raid fights.
Reasons for this are

Fights where you are trigger happy are really really few. If there was a way to see in wwstats how often you kept a shock rotation up while dpsing you would see that shock rotation is really much less than the time you were actualy dpsing. Shocks are not covered by the threat reduction enhancement talent, its the first thing you stop doing if you are going near threat cap, along stormstrike. (ie bloodboil)

And for these Elemental talents you will lose :

1. 30 yard totems. (Fear will outrange tremor totem, oops cancel that, tremor is always 30yard totem). Grounding totem won't cover you that much in situations where you are running towards a target. Your enhancement buffing totems (strength , windfury, grace of air ) wont cover a big space and when your group is splited for raid reasons some might not get the benefits from them.

2. Nature's Guidance. 3% Hit rating for spells!! and melee hits. Oh yes, did you forget that? Nature's guidance gives you 3% hit in spells too, i am reaaally so curious to see how many shocks will get resisted because you won't have this talent anymore. Don't think this is minimal, i don't want to be you when you will get 2 earthshocks resisted in a row, when you are at illidari council and trying to interrupt divine wraths or when you happen to be the only melee against a necromancer in trash packs of Mt Hyjal :/. I can't say if 3% spell hit rating is more prefered from 5% extra damage in shocks, but considering that earthshocks are used in raids for interrupt purposes too, you need to have that 3% spell hit rating.

Becoming dps machine is one thing, remembering the reason raids created a spot for enhancement shamans is another

.

Malan · 11/23/07, 10:30 PM

Tremor Totem is, and has always been, 30 yard without talents.

panny · 11/24/07, 12:05 AM

I don't want to get involved in the Ele vs Resto discussion before I've had an indepth look at it, but are the "best geared Enhancement Shaman" really only getting an average of 1200 dps? I was getting that in SSC while still using two pieces of T4.

Also: why wouldn't you include fire totem damage? The only reason I don't is because of technical problems with WWS.

TradewindKlaatubarada · 11/24/07, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by panny

I don't want to get involved in the Ele vs Resto discussion before I've had an indepth look at it, but are the "best geared Enhancement Shaman" really only getting an average of 1200 dps? I was getting that in SSC while still using two pieces of T4.

Also: why wouldn't you include fire totem damage? The only reason I don't is because of technical problems with WWS.

I'm getting from 1000 to 1500+ DPS depending on the boss fight. Really variable depending on fight circumstances, group composition and debuff status.

T.K. · 11/24/07, 1:31 AM

Some advices in here, please:

T6 helm [Skyshatter Cover] sums 229,25 AEP pts with my ratings. Not adding the meta

[Grimgrin Faceguard] sums 256,40 AEP pts using normal blue gems.

My doubt is, would the meta gem surpass that dif between them and, if not, would be worth to use epic gems on the ZA helm as i would only trade it with [Forest Prowler's Helm] or later Cursed Vision itself?

We currently at RoS at BT and already downed Archimonde at Hyjal, but i couldn't get T5 as it never dropped and so i'm still stuck with T4 helm.

Toots Hepcat · 11/24/07, 1:39 AM

Originally Posted by Nemaa

And what about high-end gear where one shaman can have a sustained 1500-1600 DPS? Beowolf, your calculations are based on the 1050 DPS. With better gear you get higher percentage of melee damage, that means Nature's Guidance worth more. There should be a point where 3% melee/spell hit gets better than +22% shock damage and +15% fire totems damage.

Ay, there is -- and if you'd read my post, you'd have seen it.

Natures Guidance = Concussion + Reverberation
1.03 white + 1.03 shock = white + 1.26 shock
1.03 white - white = 1.26 shock - 1.03 shock
.03 white = .23 shock
white = 7.7 shock

When your percentage of damage from white melee is more than 7.7 times that of shocks, nature's guidance will provide more overall damage than concussion and reverberation.

This should be very hard to achieve unless you aren't using MQ or stack the hell out of hit rating and crit. (It's actually higher because I am too lazy to solve for the third variable of totem damage, though I am not so lazy that I don't drop them).

But again -- are we talking raid utility or max dps? If it's max dps, drop the hell out of enhanced weapon totems and the whole resto tree and push hard into the elemental tree. If it's raid utility, sigh at the loss of 2-5% potential damage and consider the 3 points in NG a consolation for being nice to your raid and improving your totem range.

Oh, and don't knock the .5s big heal reduction. Will it stop a wipe? Maybe not -- though I'm able to get two big heals off after a Ground Slam before getting Stoned, something I doubt I could without the extra 1s of lag time, and that has kept up our rogue who just *loves* to hang out in cave ins.

Beowolf · 11/24/07, 1:51 AM

Originally Posted by rava

If you really want to play this game, I'll bite. Eyonix posted on twisting well over a month ago, nothing on new PTR to stop it, and 2.4 ptr is at least a week off, the patch itself another month after that. At least a full two months after the announcement it *might* be fixed. As far as the crutch statement, I guess I hit a nerve there? I did a quick search for crutch and nobody has mentioned that terminology, and from what I remember it was mostly relieved people because they did not like twisting and the position that it left them in. I'll argue it until it's corrected because it is an incredibly powerful tool.

118/10, 41/60, 84/120 = 66/5 gained from totemic focus, add in shocks, stormstrike, and a 6200 mana pool then you're looking at an empty bar of mana that still relies heavily on SR.

How is it a backwards way of looking at totem range? It's a unique perspective that is often ignored, the application of windfury itself. I thought I was descriptive enough in my first explanation, but I suppose that I wasn't. When you dodge abilities with large range, ie Death and Decay, Infernals on melee, Rain of Fire, running back in from Airburst, attacking Supremus in kite phase(not advised unless you can eat a 10k hit), eating Bloodboils, Fatal Attraction, dodging consecrates, flamestrikes, and blizzards, running in/out with parasite, redoing totems during flames phase, and other random aspects of Illidan you run the risk of outranging the buff at a bad time resulting in completely missing it for a pulse.

Stuck in the SSC/TK era? Are you trying to troll me?

You must be joking about the 1200 dps comment, I haven't used consumables in two months and my last WWS has Hyjal boss DPS at ~1500 without fire totems and shocks making up ~8% of my damage. My last Gorefiend was 1650 without consumables, battle shout, or blood frenzy. /shrug Leatherworking is a far better option than JC/Enchanting will ever be, especially after the buff to drums. I look for adding the edge to my raid, not myself.

I'm not dismissing elemental, but the argument has been going on for pages now, and I see it as a pointless one. And, yes, I'd rather have random WoW Forumers see one spec as better than the other so I don't check the thread and see 5 new posts that say, "LOLLOOKATMYSPECIHAVEELEMENTALDEVASTATION".

Link the parse or shut up.

Beowolf · 11/24/07, 1:53 AM

Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada

I'm getting from 1000 to 1500+ DPS depending on the boss fight. Really variable depending on fight circumstances, group composition and debuff status.

I guess it depends on if you are fighting a mob that is constantly casting spells or a mob that does mostly melee attacks. But no, I've never seen a 1500 DPS situation outside of Teron Gorefiend. Show me your AP/Crit/Hit that gives you 1500 DPS on Yo!s simulator, please.

◊ Rob · 11/24/07, 1:55 AM

Resto subspec:
3% to ~45% of damage and 86/83 - 1 = 3.6% to ~15% of damage ==> 1.35%+0.542% = 1.89% damage increase
30 yard totems
40 minute ankh or -25% mana cost on totems

Elemental subspec
1/6*105%*15% of damage = 2.625% damage increase
5 sec CD on earth/frost shock (some utility)
requires use of more GCDs -- damage increase only holds true if you are shocking perfectly

Elemental gives you a 102.625/101.89 - 1 = 0.72% maximum theoretical DPS increase under optimal circumstances. (In other words, if you're 1500 DPS as resto, you'd be 1511 DPS as elemental with perfect play.) You gain some PvP utility of being able to shock more frequently, but lose the PvE utility offered by increased totem range. You will be on GCD more often and I doubt that anyone will see an actual damage increase moving to elemental from restoration, period. It requires you to be impossibly perfect in your play to see a DPS increase in a raid setting. I do feel that you can now make a case for elemental as a viable alternative, but it's not going to be a DPS improvement -- it's a change of pace, at best.