No they give you both numbers. They raw overall damage explains how much damage you did on the fight and the raid members are even ranked by this number by default. WWS also gives you the DPS while you are actually fighting but the goal as a raider would be to increase both of these numbers given a fight of the same length. A DPS time goal of 100% is reasonable given you keep the flame shock dot up at all times (resists will knock this down but that is why it is a goal).

In any case his 92% DPS is a reasonable time DPsing as I typically get around that with Rage and still his numbers are way higher then mine given similar gear which is rather surprising. I think I pretty much have the cause narrowed down though which is the things he has over me is BoM (I hate our paladins), possibly group composition (where is the feral druid), and better overall raid DPS will inflate anyone's numbers who get a heroism.

P.S. - Every single example you gave of WWS calculating things wrong you are either using the wrong numbers or you are doing the math wrong (I checked each one).

WWS parses are misleading, they can be incomplete, etc.

They are useless to generate theory, only hypothesis and confirmation.

But at the very least, understand the metrics you're disputing. That bit about DPS time and flame shock I did not realize, though I should have, as I raid with a shadow priest who's usually at 99% dps time.

The reeason flame shock will raise your dps time is because of the way WWS checks if you are dpsing a mob. by having flameshock up you will deal dmg every few seconds which stops the report from thinking your not hitting the boss at that point
Which is why classes like a shadowpriest have 99-100% dps time because there is always a dot ticking.

Hmmm you're so wrong on so many fronts.

I achieve 1500+ dps on many fights in BT/Hyjal. I even posted WWS logs of 1500+ dps excluding totem damage....

Also, Yo's sim gives me 1650-1700 dps. My stats are 1880 AP/20.03% hit/33.98% crit, with standard group buffs like battle shout, BoM. Check it out for yourself :/

Perhaps exploit is too hard of a word, but it is certainly a bug and it is certainly going to be fixed. Better to get off the juice now than miss it later :P

<editted, terrible mood - apologies>

Well, I accept that I was wrong about the DPS aspect, but I do still feel that the WWS dps numbers can be incomplete and misleading, as others have mentioned so far. My own criteria for DPS is Total Damage / (Time of engagement till NPC death) or (Time of engagement until your death) where the time of engagement is the moment the MT gets agro until the moment the mob dies. None of this 'well I was healing for 25 seconds of the fight so this doesn't impact my DPS' or 'I was getting out of range of the AE or redropping totems' manipulative quirks :P

So by that standard, Sebudai, your real DPS on these fights was:

RWC - 172 seconds of tanking, 1404 instead of 1701 (-17.5%)
Anetheron - 217 seconds of tanking, 1450 instead of 1596 (-9.2%)
Kaz'rogal - 175 seconds of tanking, 1367 instead of 1495 (-8.6%)
Naj'entus - 225 seconds of tanking, 1278 instead of 1403 (-8.9%)
Teron - 191 seconds of tanking, 1712 instead of 1826 (-6.2%)

So again, without the quirks, your DPS is well short of 1500 dps on all fights but Teron. It seems that the more you have to stay out of melee DPS (such as avoiding D&D) the more inflated your total DPS becomes.

Ok this line of discussion just needs to stop. Several of you are acting like total asshats right now.

*how* can you do so much dps? share your secrets... sure, I need to get me a RT/Syphon or Syphon/Syphon combo yet, but the rest of my gear is pretty similar to all of your guys claiming to do such high dps.. our rogues don't even hit 1400 most of the time

Ok I'll leave the resto/ele discussion to others along with the DPS numbers, since i'm still in T4 stuff and my guild is just doing gruuls and started ZA and clearing prince on kara. My question is how to compaire AEP numbers for different speeded weapons with different DPS numbers. I know i posted this a few pages ago, but I've still been searching for a way and still haven't found an answer. I like to use a spreadsheet for my gear, each page has weapons i have, helms, chestpieces, etc, along with pieces i know could dropfrom the bosses we are doing and any weapons i maybe able to make in the future. So i've used pitbulls numbers i believe for the AEP numbers for DPS on weapons. I know that slower with same DPS is better, but what about differing DPS numbers with differing speeds. My thought was taking the 8.48MH/4.24OH numbers, taking those dividing by 2.6 (the original weapon speed) and then multiplying by the current weapon speed. This will make faster ie 2.2 worse and slower 2.8 better, where i know we don't want to get over 2.7 i think, maybe 2.8, so obviously i don't compare anything slower than that. So basically (AEP of DPS/2.6)*Current Weapons speed. My math skills have left me as i've gotten out of college over the years, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Very well. I apologize for being an asshat to anyone

The difference in the personal damage depends a LOT from your raid composition:

Druid: oomkin +3% hit, feral +5% crit if he's in your group; fearie fire applied?
Paladin: retribution +3% crit & +2% dmg if he's in your group
Hunter: +3% per beastmaster if they're in your group, survival ~ +300 AP from expose weakness, marksmanship +440 AP from improved hunter's mark
Warrior: improved battleshout + solarian trinket, blood frenzy +4% dmg?, sunder armor applied?
Warlock: Curse of recklessness (!)

(multiple) leatherworker with [Drums of War] or [Drums of Battle] in your group? Do you chainchug hastepots? And while comparing gear on charsheets, did you look for possibile proccs, weapon expertise and armor penetration?

---

Resto or ele?
I would never drop the 10yards on my totem range on any (trashwaves) fight in hyal. And i really like totem twisting a lot, totemic focus helps. The personal damage might be a little higher with reverbation, but without totem twisting my group damage will drop a lot (more?).

Side note, imp hunter's mark only applies to the base ap(110).

I. Adding to Ele VS Resto flame:
1.Each individual shock is effectively increased by 1.3% only, when going ele from resto:
0,83*1,05/0,86 = 1,013
2. Loosing 3% melee hit is affecting not only the white part even with hit cap being reached for yellow attacks.
Your on-hit procs from items and your windfurry damage are directly affected.
It is not 3% of white damage it is 3%*7/5 at least not counting trinkets and cross-effect.
3. Whole elemental damage part is dependant on how many shocks per 2 min cycle you can upkeep. 2 min - because totems, UR, pot and possibly trinket are on this timer and you need to renew them.
Those who specced resto are usually in the range 12-14 shocks per 2 minutes instead of 20.
Keep in mind that shocks have low priority - if you shock but SS or trinket activation are delayed - your total dps is going to drop because 85%+ of your damage comes from melee.
Here is a table of dps increases one will see if being able to perform 4 shocks more over 2 minutes while speccing from resto to ele if all raid spell buffs will be ready for your use:
Eleresto - INFOSTORE.ORG
If you think that 18 shocks over 2 minutes is easy - please show your wws.

II. Sim
"To do list":
Stonebreaker relic
Executioner enchant
Expertise replacing weapon skill + inclusion into EP calculation
Zul'Amani buff
Saving settings between sessions
Elemental damage part review
EP step scale
(melee damage is being predicted with std as low as 1 leading to EP values std of 0.3 but introduction of spell damage part added its own std of 1-2 leading to unacceptable std of EP values - 0,6+ with 10,000 hours setup, further increasing hours is not helping, so there are 2 ways to go - redesign spell part and introduce option of higher AP/rating steps while calculating EP values)
Mana balance calculation (per 2 minutes cycle)
Internal item's database
Dressing room
GUI selection of items
Items import (parsing item's tooltip)
Full character import from WoW armory

"It will be done when it will be ready" (c) Blizzard

III. Ignore armor
IA is unique in that if you are stacking it - it's EP value is increasing.
This can possibly lead to a situation when EP values suggest upgrade direction with balanced stats while it is possible to "jump" to another local extremum (with possible higher dps) with a lot of AI within same item's budget.

IV. Rhetoric question
How the hell Blizzard thinks one can effectively tune their characters (gear/talents/playstyle) without going deep into theorycrafting? And they continue to add new stats into mix..

Don't use other's EP numbers - find your own. As for comparing weapons with different speeds - it's too complex to do it directly with EP (for me at least) but you can use alternative - run simulation (your spreadsheet will provide you with starting numbers) and compare resulting dps.

@Yo - The sim no longer functions with OS X 10.5.1 Leopard, the Mac Java package broke Java 6 functionality. I'm not sure if your code is using actualy Java 6 methods or if you're just compiling it with Java 6 for the heck of it?

All design elements are from Java 6 (fancy buttons, etc.). Java turned out to be not that universal (including different looks on different systems). Hopefully Java 6 will be supported by Macs soon.

Variation of EP (AEP) values is too high after selecting AP->dmg conversion making EP values produced with it being "on" unreliable. Use sim without conversion and substruct 0.1-0.2 from all values except Str and AP as a workaround for now.

Thanks a lot, Yo.

Why should you gimp yourself now just because you'll be nerfed later? The only time that makes sense is when the nerfs result in having to relearn how to play. With something like the removal of mana conserve mods for healing, it made sense to learn how to play without them prior to 1.10 coming out so that you wouldn't have a raid full of healers going OOM at 90% when 1.10 did come out. With totem twisting, you have to learn to... not hit your totem twist macro. It seems very unlikely that you don't already know how to do that. The only thing that you might have to "learn" is how to beat fights with slightly less DPS, but it's a low priority bug that isn't easy to fix. I would not be at all surprised to see totem twisting still working well into WotLK.

I also made some calculations today. With my values as a base, I tried to answer two questions:

a.) With the new Mental Quickness, in which amount has the value of AP increased?
b.) How many EP do I need to increase my DPS by 1%?

Well, I don't want to post the whole calculations here, but I got my two answers:

a.) The benefit of AP has increased by around 3%. Which means, that you can divide all other values by 1.03, as long as the sim can't calculate stable EP values with Mental Quickness active.
b.) 50 EP translates to a 1% total DPS increase.

a) The value of AP is and will always be, 1. Its what all the other values are based upon. It doesn't increase or decrease. Its just 1. It is the rock, the foundation that all other values derive from.

b) EP is boiling things down into an attack power equivalence. So that's great, you just said that 50 Attack Power increases your DPS by 1%.

Short version - you haven't discovered anything new.

I recently made the big step into Black Temple and picked up a Rising Tide. What I was wondering is if my current offhand (Netherbane) would outperform a syphon?
I tried working with Yo!'s sim but it sadly does not include expertise yet. Running the sim without including expertise put syphon ahead of netherbane by 0.5% dps.
So if anyone could help me figure out which weapon would be better would be greatly appreciated.