◊ Malan

Yah I'll go back and look at that, was there ever a real conclusion made on the 2.7 OH?

Vyktianity already has over 75 billion followers. The first verse in his book "Gift of the Wild" is "In the beginning Vyk cast lifebloom and then maul."

 

berg

I would love to hear more about this. Has anyone else built the trinket and tested it yet?

 

drats

To answer some questions from the last few pages:

Nightfall is not worth it anymore. Aside from the fact that you aren't taking advantage of DW, the proc happens so infrequently (1PPM) that it barely makes up the damage you would be doing. I sometimes weaponswap it in if it looks like i'm going to pull aggro. Other than that, it's worthless. As a side note, if the proc ever shows up on another weapon (hopefully a slow offhand) I would grab it in a second.

Darkmoon Cards: Wrath and Crusade are good cards for enh shaman. My critrate is near 24% unbuffed and I've seen wrath stack up to 7 (119 melee and spell crit rating). Normally I see it stack around 4 times before I crit. If you already have a critrate close to 30%, Crusade is better. Crusade applies to both shocks and melee damage.

Relentless Earthstorm Diamond. This is THE meta gem for enhancement shaman. Stop asking questions and get one. Results speak for themselves.

Other things:

Sometimes it's pretty risky keeping the buff from the darkmoon cards up, esp the spell damage one.

I thought I could game the system by getting elemental devastation and flametounge on a fast offhand combined with the wrath card. Unfortunately, frostbrand and flametounge don't appear to proc the wrath card or elemental devastation. Back to the drawing board for me.

 

rava

I'm aware it's been discussed a lot, so I'll toss in some experience.

Our paladins are pretty solid and generally keep JoW up on bosses, resulting in a bigger return on mana than SR itself. Teron for example, I gained something like 220/5, over 13000 mana returned, compared to SR's 12000 and change. My AP is a fair bit lower than most, so I suppose that could be the case, but with all of this newfound mana I've found it quite easy to sustain totem cycling and shocking. Every third shock or so is lost due to GCD catching up to me, giving me about a 2% damage loss, but gaining GoA was a more significant dps upgrade not only to me but to my group.

 

◊ Malan

Wasn't there a new weapon in TBC that had the same proc as Nightfall? Whatever happened to it?

Vyktianity already has over 75 billion followers. The first verse in his book "Gift of the Wild" is "In the beginning Vyk cast lifebloom and then maul."

 

Kirion

Was in beta, removed before release.

42.

 

Ryley

Not quite, the proc was put on a 2h axe (It was a blue quest reward in SMV) but the proc never worked properly, so they removed the proc from the weapon.

 

◊ Malan

RE: Relentless Earthstorm Diamond

Someone check my process here because I probably did something wrong, but it made sense at the time. My armory has the exact gear that I was using at the time which includes the Relentless meta gem.

I took this WWS parse from FLK and computed the average damage done from crits and white damage. (Had to use averages because WWS does not report actual totals for white vs crit)

This gives me the following data:
Crit Damage
AutoAttack Crits - 120,840 (120 crits, 1007 average)
Windfury Crits - 76,912 (44 crits, 1748 average)
Stormstrike Crits - 18,864 (18 crits, 1048 average)

Non Crit Damage
AutoAttack - 70050 (150 hits, 467 average)
Windfury - 46,200 (56 hits, 825 average)
Stormstrike - 20,120 (40 hits, 503 average)

Total Crit Average = 216,616
Total Non Crit Average = 136,370

3% of my crit damage would be 216,616 - (1.03 * 216,616) =6309

Of my total damage that 3% translates to 6,309/(216,616 + 136,370) = 1.788%

So the Relentless Earthstorm gave me 1.788% total damage increase. We could maybe fudge this to a 2% increase?

The WWS parse shows my DPS time at about 5 minutes, the log times recorded for the combat duration show it as 328 seconds. My "average" DPS from the values above then is 1076. (Slightly higher than what WWS parses but its because I'm calculating this using average damage)

If I deduct the calculated damage from the earthstorm diamond and recompute my DPS, my Non-Earthstorm DPS would be 1056, showing the earthstorm diamond as a (very roughly) 21 DPS improvement.

I hope that made sense or I just wasted a nice chunk of time.

Edit - the rogue DPS spreadsheet shows the Relentless as a 12 DPS increase on the default set that loaded when I downloaded the sheet.

Edit2 - changed some calculations based on feedback

Vyktianity already has over 75 billion followers. The first verse in his book "Gift of the Wild" is "In the beginning Vyk cast lifebloom and then maul."

 

◊ Shaker

I think you need to be dividing 216,616 by 1.03 (then subtracting), not multiplying by .03....

(e.g. 100 + 3% = 103, but 103 * .03 = 3.09, not 3)

So: 216,616/1.03 = 210,306.8 216,616 - 210,307 = 6309. (1.788%)

So slightly less, but you're also not accounting for the 12 agility.

 

◊ Malan

Thanks I'll correct that. And yah not accounting for the crit at all, really just looking at the value of the +3% crit damage since thats the aspect most people want to know about.

Vyktianity already has over 75 billion followers. The first verse in his book "Gift of the Wild" is "In the beginning Vyk cast lifebloom and then maul."

 

Ikuturso

Yet another Blasted Lands test; having luckily pocketed the 2.8 Syphon from Supremus today and the 2.7 rod from Kael'thas earlier, I went out and tried if I can make anything of the effect of swapping them around in MH and OH. 37 passive haste on my gloves lowers the speeds to 2.71 and 2.61, and I had the tier 5 Flurry bonus for an extra 5% of haste.

30 minutes of uninterrupted autoattacking on a level 54 servant, using no skills or spells other than refreshing Healing Spring and Stoneskin every two minutes. The amount of swings was similar in both sessions, 1780 and 1798.

First with the slower Syphon in the main hand and the rod in the offhand:

Wow Web Stats

Then swapping the slower weapon to the offhand:

Wow Web Stats

WWS reports a dps of 823 for the first session and 835 for the second

Trimming the logs with a few greps and seds, I compiled another set of statistics by hand:

Using the slower weapon on MH gives higher damage MH WFs as is expected; however, it appears using the slower one on OH causes more of your total WF procs to be MH procs. In this data it seems this raises the average damage of all windfury hits and thus DPS.

Stormstrike might change the results. I'll see if I can find time for another hitting session using SS.

 

Pearl

@Ikuturso:

will this example be for all weapons? i think its shocking to read this, i would have never thought a MH with less max dmg was better for dps.

i saw from sebudai's armory he used the same combo and i was confused, but now i see that its true.

but my question: is dubble syphon better dps than the rod/sphyon combo?

on a sidenote, is there any progress in getting lootzor.com to add haste rating items into consideration?

 

Tornhoof

This was to be expected and this is already well known, that a slightly faster MH gets more WH swings, to a certain degree this is alleviated by Stormstrike.
That is another reason why the old PVP 2.9s 59.5 DPS Weapon is still nice for OH.

 

• Aeolian

Sorry to change the current discussion, hopefully it gets back on track, but I had a question concerning elixir/flask uses. I am almost positive that this was previously covered, if not in this thread then elsewhere but I have been unable to find it, and since this seems to be the definitive post for us right now I might as well ask here.

Is there a point where Elixir of Major Agility becomes better for us then Relentless Assault? My assumption is no, but I would rather ask and be proven wrong then to continue on ignorant.

 

Ardonomus

Reading this makes me feel silly, does this mean my Fel Edged Battleaxe can be banked and I should be grabbing my old 60 HWL Cleaver of 2.9 speed? As I've been thinking about this for awhile, I've seen that my OH eats up most of my WF's when raiding, but I have yet to convince myself that the mats farmed was a waste of time.

I'm currently trying to farm some arena points for the Arena 2 OH, but until then, HWL or FEB?

Edit: Cleared up typos and added enchants to weps.

Edit2:

Another thing, I'm wondering how you're pulling aggro on Tidewalker, since I have no chance in hell to grab aggro even if I go full out after 5 seconds after our druid tank grabs him. Hence I've conclusioned that I do something wrong, hopefully you can help me! I know my FS\SS\ES rotation isnt optimal, but surely this can't matter that much for DPS, could it be because of my 2.20 OH?

Here's a WWS of the last Tidewalker kill I attended: WWS

Gear has improved alittle since then, but not more then +50ish AP, +1-2% crit and -2% hit. Armory profile to the left.

 

Nemaa

It's gear dependent. If you don't have high enough crit%, take the elixir.

Yesterday I got the Syphon as well and did some tests with the java app Pater made.
test1 was with Talon of the Phoenix in MH (2.7) and Syphon in OH (2.8)
test2 was with Syphon in MH (2.8) and Gladiator's Cleaver in OH (2.6)
dps results were equal. I'll paste detailed results here later (if I get back to home from work )

Then I tested them on Teron and saw roughly equal results. Syphon hits better in MH but faster OH eats more WFs. The Talon has lower end damage and lower dps but does more WF if Syphon is in OH. I'm pretty sure dual Syphon is the best weapon choice right now.

 

Tornhoof

You could have answered this question yourself by using any of the models and programs linked in the first post. It highly depends on your buffs, but you can say that the old HWL cleaver won't perform much worse, if at all with raidbuffs. With my program you would have a difference of maybe 3-5 DPS (perfectly raidbuffed HWL is better, without raidbuffs FEB is better, but the difference is maybe 3-5 DPS)

So yes, your FEB is wasted material.

 

SentinelBorg

I also got the Syphon on Tuesday and asked myself the same question with Syphon and the Merciless Gladiator Axe, which one MH?

WWS 2.8/2.6: Jaffnar - WWS

WWS 2.6/2.8: Jaffnar - WWS

The second test is a 14 min shorter then the first one, because I was too long AFK und died. :P
Oh and it is in german, 'Nahkampf' means Melee Attack, 'Windzorn' Windfury and 'Essenz entziehen' is the Syphon Proc.

The average WF dam is almost the same (646 vs. 645). So while I got more WF MH procs with the faster MH in the second test, the fewer WF MH procs hit stronger in the first test, which averages it out. White damage and Stormstrike are both favoring the stronger weapon in the MH, so in the end I think, Syphon is better held in the MH. But well, lets just hope there drops another one today. :P

Sentinel

 

◊ Malan

Ok gang I updated the OP a bit and hopefully made it a little more readable for everyone.

Please let me know if I still need to reword anything! (Also offer a suggested way to rephrase something)

Vyktianity already has over 75 billion followers. The first verse in his book "Gift of the Wild" is "In the beginning Vyk cast lifebloom and then maul."

 

Ardonomus

It just keeps improving!

A minor suggestion would be to add the [Sovereign Nightseye] in the gems section, for the [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] requirements and reword the gems section a little to avoid confusion for skim-readers.

 

SentinelBorg

About the Ashtongue Talisman: It looks like the 50% chance works for every hit of a Stormstrike attack. Because of that, the uptime is around 75%.

And also a section about threat reducement would be nice.


Sentinel

 

◊ Malan

Yah I've seen a few people say that about the Talisman now, but nobody has posted any evidence for discussion, I'd rather not put speculation up just yet.

What about threat reduction do you want to see?

Edit - reworded the OP Gem stuff as per above.

Vyktianity already has over 75 billion followers. The first verse in his book "Gift of the Wild" is "In the beginning Vyk cast lifebloom and then maul."

 

Nemaa

Maybe some basic guide how to manage the threat level?
I'm curious what you know about [Prism of Inner Calm]? Is it viable to choose that trinket over the ones that are posted in the OP? All I know is that it's -150 threat on melee criticals and -1000 threat on spell criticals. What if I crit with rank1 earth shock?