Your figures in the WWS parses are very similar to mine for BT but in Hyjal you seem to be doing more dps. But as someone once said (Malan and Rob i think) in an earlier response to one of my posts....WWS is not comparable between different guilds raids etc its such a subjective way to do things.
I disagree. Why isn't it comparable between different guilds? If the logs are taken correctly, WWS is a great tool for this purpose. Its useful because of its subjectiveness.
One thing is for sure though that the average dps in your raids across all classes is very high no slackers there for sure :-) Do you tend to run with 6/7 healers these days?
Thanks. It just depends on the fight. We swap the raid around for each encounter, but on average I'd say we raid with 7-8 healers.
With regards to WWS I see your guild does not use the online service for hosting as the links you show are to your guilds web space. I think you are therefore using the local generation of stats and hosting the results your selves. I would be grateful if you could ask your WWS guys how they manage to get the whole fight for Akama, including the Channellers and other mobs. When you host a BT parse on WWS servers it only shows Akama as a fight from the time he is released. Do your guys trim the logs? for each fight and host them? If so I think this may be a better way to give more accurate and meaningful parses, focussing specifically on each encounter.
To get the whole fight you just need multiple people logging, preferably from a variety of classes. You can also extend the logging range pretty far using addons etc. All of our logs get sent to Grimx who does the trimming, which basically involves cutting out all the pre/post-fight buffing. The logs start when the first attack of the encounter is landed, and they end when the "<Boss Name> dies." line appears in the combat log.
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Well, I accept that I was wrong about the DPS aspect, but I do still feel that the WWS dps numbers can be incomplete and misleading, as others have mentioned so far. My own criteria for DPS is Total Damage / (Time of engagement till NPC death) or (Time of engagement until your death) where the time of engagement is the moment the MT gets agro until the moment the mob dies. None of this 'well I was healing for 25 seconds of the fight so this doesn't impact my DPS' or 'I was getting out of range of the AE or redropping totems' manipulative quirks :P
There are very good reasons for WWS to calculate DPS in this way. The reason we care about the DPS statistic in the first place is because it helps us evaluate what kind of damage output a certain class is capable of. Due to the random elements involved in many encounters, players can lose "DPS time" for non-class specific reasons, and under your criteria their DPS would drop and the statistic would become less meaningful as far as its ability to help tell us how well a player is playing. For example, what would happen if a particular mage was Doomed 3 times on Azgalor? Under your criteria his DPS would be terrible, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's doing anything wrong at all.
Calculating DPS in this way allows us to get a good idea of how each class stacks up despite all of the random events going on in a lot of encounters that can just randomly affect some players much more than others. You are correct that this can be abused, but it would be fairly obvious just by looking at DPS time and other information the WWS provides for us. It's not like I have 20% DPS time and I'm popping all of my cooldowns every time I "joust" the mob. I have 90%+ DPS time in pretty much all of these parses. Many of your comments are borderline accusatory and insulting. Do you honestly think I'm intentionally attempting to abuse the way WWS calculates DPS just to inflate my numbers so I can impress some random shaman on the Elitist Jerks forums?
So again, without the quirks, your DPS is well short of 1500 dps on all fights but Teron. It seems that the more you have to stay out of melee DPS (such as avoiding D&D) the more inflated your total DPS becomes.
This is not true at all. The way WWS calculates DPS is just as likely to affect mine in a negative way as it is to inflate it. What happens when I pop Bloodlust on Archimonde only to have half of my group Air Bursted with my Flame Shock ticking away?
a) The value of AP is and will always be, 1. Its what all the other values are based upon. It doesn't increase or decrease. Its just 1. It is the rock, the foundation that all other values derive from.
b) EP is boiling things down into an attack power equivalence. So that's great, you just said that 50 Attack Power increases your DPS by 1%.
Short version - you haven't discovered anything new.
So what? I said I wanted to know how much the benefit of AP has increased because of the new Mental Quickness? This question in the beginning has nothing to do with the fact, that we use AP as a fixed-value in the EP system. We could also use crit instead. But because we use AP this way, I calculated how much I have to reduce the other values to take account for this change. This should be a valueable information for other shamans, that are still using the EP values from Yo's sim without MQ, because of the instability with the MQ option activated. So why the flame?
I am asking again, for the people who are playing enhancement shaman in raids and are using few elemental talents instead of the typical restoration ones..
isn't the loss of 3% spell hit from nature's guidance affecting your shock total damage? Don't you have lots of resists, or maybe even partials?
PS Any way to add the damage from your totems (searing, magma and nova totems, well fire /earth elemental's too) to your damage meter?
You do slightly more damage with elemental talents per shock even factoring in the resist rates. The real benefit is in the 1 second cooldown reduction, which means your shocks are enhanced by 22% overall. You COULD totem twist and double shock every SS cooldown, but its very mana intensive.
You do slightly more damage with elemental talents per shock even factoring in the resist rates. The real benefit is in the 1 second cooldown reduction, which means your shocks are enhanced by 22% overall. You COULD totem twist and double shock every SS cooldown, but its very mana intensive.
Unless you are in total GCD frenzy that won't happen.
All factored in a 10 second Frame :
2 Totems Every 10 seconds = 3 Sec GCD
2 Shocks Every 10 Seconds = 3 Sec GCD
Stormstrike Once Every 10 seconds = 1.5 Sec GCD
Add them all up you got 7.5 Seconds as GCD.
Now Factor in an average of 200ms per Button Press. (5 Buttons X 200ms = 1 Sec)
Thats 8.5 Seconds of Only GCDs leaving only 1.5 Second as margin of error.
You can do that but you gonna be too stressed out in the end & once you miss one WF you gonna have your whole group suffer when it comes to overall damge.
So it's a high margin of error with very small margin of gain.
Either go with shocks or Totem twisting & neither both.
Don´t forget that you "have" to drop Firenova on CD and Searing after that, which is not on a 10 sec timer, so it will throw you off anyway. Besides waiting for you WF cooldown pre SS is going to do way more damage anyway ^^ ...
VIII.3 Itemization – Haste
Haste Rating will directly increase the contribution of white swings to your DPS - 1% Haste will generate 1% more auto attack DPS. Prior to patch 2.2 Haste Rating became the superior stat, but the 2.3 patch reduced its EP value closer to that of Hit Rating.
Modeling indicated weapons hasted between 1.51 and 1.41 speed will actually experience a sharp decrease in potential Windfury DPS. The range of 1.51- 1.41 speed was believed to cause the main hand to always finish a swing just before the end of a WF cooldown, making you wait longer for the next eligible swing that can proc WF. If hasted in this period for a long duration, you could expect WF DPS contribution to decrease. However, you'll also experience many more white swings during that time, and so the loss of potential WF procs should be offset by the increased white DPS. It is no longer believed that the 1.5 to 1.4 hasted speed will actually cause any decrease in DPS - you should notice an overall increase.
There is no need to worry about the 1.51 - 1.41 hasted weapon range. The original claims about the supposed DPS loss had done no empirical or simulated testing to back up their modeling. More recent testing has indicated that whatever potential WF DPS is lost because of swing timer issues is more than made up for by the gigantic leap in autoattack DPS.
Speaking as a Shaman who trolled the WoW-EU forums for months now, I was always under the impression that dipping below 1.5 weapon speed whilst using a WF+WF setup was never a good thing. However browsing this forum and discovering this (wonderful) post, this illusion has apparently been shattered.
I was wondering however, is there any specific theory-crafting/evidence to back this up? Or is it done using one of the various spreadsheets available? I tried using the search function, but after several pages couldn't seem to find much for it.
Also, at what level does haste rating become a stat to focus on? Or is it simply another nice to have stat whilst not bothering looking for specific bits with it on? (aka another hit rating)
As an off note, I'm loving all the math going on here, it's like my nerdish dream.
Last edited by Scribbles : 11/25/07 at 6:59 AM.
Reason: Post Clarity
Speaking as a Shaman who trolled the WoW-EU forums for months now, I was always under the impression that dipping below 1.5 weapon speed whilst using a WF+WF setup was never a good thing. However browsing this forum and discovering this (wonderful) post, this illusion has apparently been shattered.
I was wondering however, is there any specific theory-crafting/evidence to back this up? Or is it done using one of the various spreadsheets available?
Also, at what level does haste rating become a stat to focus on? Or is it simply another nice to have stat whilst not bothering looking for specific bits with it on? (aka another hit rating)
As an off note, I'm loving all the math going on here, it's like my nerdish dream.
The theorycraft was the fact that since Windfury is on a 3 second cooldown, having the swing speed between 1.4-1.5 will cause you to just barely miss the next legal windfury proc attack, effectively reducing your windfury damage in theory.
However, this has not been reproduced successfully or reported. And the reasoning behind that is the fact that at consistent 1.4-1.5 haste, your white attacks are so much more effective that losing out on potential windfury procs will not hurt your DPS as some have theorized.
Haste and armor penetration are things that get progressively good as you stack them. However, with the items available in the game right now, I do not think it is feasible to completely stack haste/Ar.P at the cost of other stats and come out with better stats.
The theorycraft was the fact that since Windfury is on a 3 second cooldown, having the swing speed between 1.4-1.5 will cause you to just barely miss the next legal windfury proc attack, effectively reducing your windfury damage in theory.
However, this has not been reproduced successfully or reported. And the reasoning behind that is the fact that at consistent 1.4-1.5 haste, your white attacks are so much more effective that losing out on potential windfury procs will not hurt your DPS as some have theorized.
Fair game, so at what standard of gear should you be thinking "Oh, a bit of haste wouldn't go un-noticed"? Is it, as asked, just a side-grade to our normal stats(AP/Crit)? Or should it be a focused on stat as soon as possible?
Edit:: Just seen the last paragraph. Thanks for the quick response.
Having read the last few pages about ele vs resto and the totem range you get/miss depending on your build, I had a question pop up in my head.
Is there an addon which shows you directly which of your party members are in range of which totems?
Having something like this would not only be great for enh shamans of course, it would also be very nice for all the other shamans to better support their group.
If there isn't something like that, is anyone interested in creating one? I'd gladly offer my support for testing, maybe even a bit of coding/debugging.
Hi all. I play as Fury DPS Warrior in raids, and I know how important a shaman really is for us, not only for pure DPS purposes but also for smoother rage generation. Now, I've been used in earlier SSC/TK raids with previous guilds to have an Enhancement Shaman almost always in party and that helped me stand on par and even ahead better geared DPSers, even rogues on certain encounters; I know that an Enhancement Shaman can boost a Fury Warrior by about 220DPS with everything talented, and this is just amazing, I literally fly in damage but most importantly in the fun-factor when I have one in my group.
However, I decided to migrate on another server and now I find myself in a guild which attempts to attune the very last people before entering the Mount Hyjal/Black Temple's journey. Unfortunately they have no Enhancement Shaman, and they didn't even have a Fury Warrior before me; they just used to ran with 3 rogues and such. I already had a chat with the GM trying to talk with him of the importance of shamans in raid(Self-resurrection, Heroism, and in our case invaluable party buffs), but in order to really persuade him I'm in need of some raw data comparison.
How much DPS contribution(personal plus added) can a well-geared Enhancement Shaman, post 2.3, bring to the raid in comparison of a third rogue, given an ideal melee group(feral druid, fury warrior and 2 rogues)? As I previously stated I already know that it is more than worth it, but I need some data proof.
Fair game, so at what standard of gear should you be thinking "Oh, a bit of haste wouldn't go un-noticed"? Is it, as asked, just a side-grade to our normal stats(AP/Crit)? Or should it be a focused on stat as soon as possible?
Read more about EP system from first post. All stats are assigned the value based on your total current stats so you can compare gear.
a.) The benefit of AP has increased by around 3%. Which means, that you can divide all other values by 1.03, as long as the sim can't calculate stable EP values with Mental Quickness active.
b.) 50 EP translates to a 1% total DPS increase.
Those "secondary" stats (EP to % of dps increase, etc.) depend on your current stats just like EP values of stats, It is interesting to know indeed and I plan adding "dps gain per EP" line to the sim. Thank you for the idea.
How much DPS contribution(personal plus added) can a well-geared Enhancement Shaman, post 2.3, bring to the raid in comparison of a third rogue, given an ideal melee group(feral druid, fury warrior and 2 rogues)? As I previously stated I already know that it is more than worth it, but I need some data proof.
You may want to show him some wws logs such as the ones that were posted by Sebudai few pages back and his guilds wws logs where he was not present. Or you can select a hard way and go to other melee classes forums, find simulators and run them with and without shaman buffs. Keep in mind that hardcore raid-friendly shamans love to totem twist providing 2 air totems instead of 1.
Unless you are in total GCD frenzy that won't happen.
All factored in a 10 second Frame :
2 Totems Every 10 seconds = 3 Sec GCD
2 Shocks Every 10 Seconds = 3 Sec GCD
Stormstrike Once Every 10 seconds = 1.5 Sec GCD
Add them all up you got 7.5 Seconds as GCD.
Now Factor in an average of 200ms per Button Press. (5 Buttons X 200ms = 1 Sec)
Thats 8.5 Seconds of Only GCDs leaving only 1.5 Second as margin of error.
You can do that but you gonna be too stressed out in the end & once you miss one WF you gonna have your whole group suffer when it comes to overall damge.
So it's a high margin of error with very small margin of gain.
Either go with shocks or Totem twisting & neither both.
But it *is* entirely possible to do this, and keep it sustained for a whole fight. A situation that interupts your cast flow (archi air burst, silences etc) do the same for an enh/resto shaman, and as long as you can instantly recognise what has the highest priority to cast as soon as you are next able it works out fine.
For the non air totems they can be redropped in the 'spare' gcd one at a time, no need to be doing a mass redrop all at once. And I haven't found any fight (including trash) where I cannot keep my group fully totemed the whole time.
The point here is not to try and convince people that enh/ele is better than enh/resto, just that they are both equally viable. Neither has a noticable total raid dps lead on the other, they do however offer a slightly different play style from each other. People should be trying them both and going with what they like and works for them, not trying to get the answer to 'which is best for all shaman', because as things stand there is no answer.
You may want to show him some wws logs such as the ones that were posted by Sebudai few pages back and his guilds wws logs where he was not present. Or you can select a hard way and go to other melee classes forums, find simulators and run them with and without shaman buffs. Keep in mind that hardcore raid-friendly shamans love to totem twist providing 2 air totems instead of 1.
Unluckily he *is* present in basically every WWS log that his guild cared to upload.
Having read the last few pages about ele vs resto and the totem range you get/miss depending on your build, I had a question pop up in my head.
Is there an addon which shows you directly which of your party members are in range of which totems?
Having something like this would not only be great for enh shamans of course, it would also be very nice for all the other shamans to better support their group.
If there isn't something like that, is anyone interested in creating one? I'd gladly offer my support for testing, maybe even a bit of coding/debugging.
Chaman2 totem addon from Ace displeys the number of party members within each totems range. I pretty much couldn't play without, it makes totem dropping & selecting a complete breeze.
Edit* - It doesn't show some totems, like tremor for example, not exactly sure why, but it does show the numbers on WF/GoA/SoE/Mana/Healing etc so you can pretty much say if everyones in range of WF, then everyones in range of the others.
It does not show tremor because tremor does not give any buff to the party members, while WF can be seen on a weapon for example. That is based on logical deduction and might be totally wrong.
It does not show tremor because tremor does not give any buff to the party members, while WF can be seen on a weapon for example. That is based on logical deduction and might be totally wrong.
This was what I was thinking too, all the totems that have a visible buff icon can be tracked and shown.
Unluckily he *is* present in basically every WWS log that his guild cared to upload.
I got him He missed Sep 27 night entirely with 3 fights including Ilidan.
Illidan with Sebudai (Oct 4) = WWS
Illidan without Sebudai - WWS
Raid dps went down from 10,879 to 9,981
His group lost 310 dps (2 rogues, war and druid I believe) rogues loosing 100+ dps each.
At that time Sebudai's own dps was 1130 and highest rogues dps without shaman was 1320 so shaman over roque was +120 dps at that time for the group.
Both logs are from patch 2.2, shaman's individual dps was boosted greatly in 2.3
EDIT:
Sebudai was replaced by caster-shaman for totems so the group still gained WF totem (but not improved), Str (not improved), no AGI (from totem twist) and no UR. Also the war woulld be more affected by shaman's change if DW.
That's *great* info Yo!. I'm going to be looking at these parses more closely to see exactly what can be gleaned.
Ok, so the first thing that I see is that they're in range of the wf totem about 10% less of the time (averaging 36 as opposed to 40 or so WF extra attacks without him vs with him).
Also, the rogues' dps time is about 5% lower in the parses without him, which affects the overall numbers.
Other than that, the data looks pretty good. I don't think it's unreasonable to thing that would be standard - that a resto/elemental shaman wouldn't be able to maintain as much wf uptime/proximity as an enhance shaman. 100dps extra per rogue by having him in the group seems reasonable to me.
I got him He missed Sep 27 night entirely with 3 fights including Ilidan.
Illidan with Sebudai (Oct 4) = WWS
Illidan without Sebudai - WWS
Raid dps went down from 10,879 to 9,981
His group lost 310 dps (2 rogues, war and druid I believe) rogues loosing 100+ dps each.
At that time Sebudai's own dps was 1130 and highest rogues dps without shaman was 1320 so shaman over roque was +120 dps at that time for the group.
Both logs are from patch 2.2, shaman's individual dps was boosted greatly in 2.3
Fact is that Warrior is 2h Arms, and Arms get the lesser benefit now. Fury Warriors gain far and ahead the most benefit out of shamans right now. Also I believe that other boss fights would better show how much of a consistent gain an enhancement shaman can be for melee group, am I correct?
You do slightly more damage with elemental talents per shock even factoring in the resist rates. The real benefit is in the 1 second cooldown reduction, which means your shocks are enhanced by 22% overall. You COULD totem twist and double shock every SS cooldown, but its very mana intensive.
Chaman2 totem addon from Ace displeys the number of party members within each totems range. I pretty much couldn't play without, it makes totem dropping & selecting a complete breeze.
Edit* - It doesn't show some totems, like tremor for example, not exactly sure why, but it does show the numbers on WF/GoA/SoE/Mana/Healing etc so you can pretty much say if everyones in range of WF, then everyones in range of the others.
11/24/07, 11:52 PM
He missed Sep 27 night entirely with 3 fights including Ilidan.
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