Get 1 one handed Weapon and 1 offhand weapon, and if you can get an upgrade, simply drop the offhand only weapon.
Might only be interesting with different enchants like mungoose and executioner, but with 1850 personal rating reached on a save team and a 3 man or 5 man team leecher group, you should easily get enough arena points to effort anything you want.
It's only a preference of style, there's no difference in any terms of dps (except for orcs, for sure).
Edit:
For the poster above
Originally Posted by Mox
Someone in this thread worked out the EP value of the exalted Hyjal ring, but I can't seem to find the damn post...
That said there is a LOT of contradictory information on weapons on this thread. Basic to enhance shaman is "slow is good" and many posts on triggering windfury with the OH and getting less damage. Posts on how slower harder hitting weapons are better but there is also (on page 1) an item saying MH/OH or OH/MH 'seem' to be the same damage despite weapon speed. Contradictory.
It's not contradictory - if 2.6/2.8 = 2.8/2.6, that doesn't mean that either one of those setups isn't better than 2.0/2.2 or 2.2/2.0.
Is it possible blizzard, along with a WF cooldown bumped the % up for the next swing to keep the rate consistent? I dont know.
No one knows the "why" of this situation, just the "what" of it. There are threads in the Blizzard forums, often started by Graxxon, which delve into the "why" of it, and those are usually threads that I enjoy watching for the car-wreck aspect.
I do know that to get the inital arena weapons for honor is huge for many of us. Huge.
You got that right! I used an honor weapon as my offhand for months, one of those blue 71.7 dps weapons, until I finally saved enough arena points from welfare teams for a S2 offhand.
But the stats are not the same. The fist weapon does have a higher top end damage. Damage for enhanced shaman depends on that. I think this is a valid question.
Unless there's something I'm missing, our dps is not driven by damage (as an input). That is, I can't think of a mechanic relevant to us that says "x% of your damaging attacks will provide y% bonus to your Attack Power" (or similar). Other classes *do* have abilities like this - Shadow Priests, for example. For this reason, all weapons of the same speed with the same average damage should be equal, all other things (racials, stat bonuses, sockets) remaining equal. Unless I've missed something, that is.
but there is also (on page 1) an item saying MH/OH or OH/MH 'seem' to be the same damage despite weapon speed. Contradictory.
But the stats are not the same. The fist weapon does have a higher top end damage. Damage for enhanced shaman depends on that. I think this is a valid question.
Nobody cares what your post count is. When we do care to know, we can click your member profile to find out. (I'm not saying this to be a jerk, merely to point out that your post count is irrelevant and the mods don't like seeing it)
There is no contradiction about the weapons. The section you are referring to states that placing two weapons with equivelant dps but differing speeds (ie, a 2.6 w/ 100 DPS and a 2.8 with 100 DPS) in either hand results in the same overall DPS. That is not a contradiction at all.
Refused was referencing the Gladiator set from S1 (Grinding Honor, specifically referencing Gladiator without the S2/S3 qualifier)
The fist versus axe/mace question brought up isn't so much between DPS or weapon speed, but the damage range.
S1 Right ripper has a DPS of 91.3, speed of 2.6, and a damage range of 166-309
S1 Cleaver/Pummeler have DPS of 91.2, speed of 2.6, and a damage range of 189-285
Since WF damage is calculated off of the weapon damage, I think it boils down to: Take the weapon with the tighter damage range but lower max damage or the weapon with higher max damage but a wider damage range?
These numbers have been homogenized for newer gear, but there is minor difference in DPS and the big difference in the damage ranges for S1, I can see why there might be some confusion for folks not as steeped in the math as the regulars here. As there is little to no mention of the S1 weapons, only S2, it is not explicitly addressed in the OP.
As there is not a slow OH fist in S1, the fist set doesn't work for Enhancement shaman. That, and the fact the fist weapons are locked into a specific handedness where the cleaver/pummeler are ambidextrous in usage, a nice feature when considering upgrades and offering some flexibility.
Just thought that Refused was getting pummeled with with Vengeful weapons for a question about S1 gear that isn't as uniform as the new stuff. /shrug
As an aside, I've tried to use Yo's sim, but I get back very odd AEP/EP values. I get AP = 1, Strength = 2 and nothing else (Agi, etc) Don't know what that points to, but I've tried all sorts of values and it always comes back with just those 2 fields filled.
Ok, I will now explain in full detail why one hand is far superior to off hand or main hand. It boils down to mixed enchants. If you don't have a gold problem, you don't have a problem with choosing off hand vs. one hand.
It could happen that, Blizzard determines that enhancement shaman were under-represented during season 2. So they change frost brand to be a much nicer choice for arenas.
Now the poor shaman must find a 1.5 second speed weapon in order to use frostbrand to its fullest.
But wait.... now he's using frostbrand which means no windfury procs on that hand.. so he has to choose whether a lower ppm Executioner is worse or better than a lower ppm Mongoose.... one of these enchants will lose ppm due to no WF. That shaman comes back to this thread, as many shaman would and someone here proves that a lower ppm executioner is much preferred in arenas to a lower ppm mongoose, but it sucks for that shaman, he put mongoose on his off hand only weapon and executioner on his one handed. Now he has to re-enchant the one handed weapon to mongoose.
Or blizzard changes the mongoose or executioner proc, or proc mechanics in general such that there is a significant difference between using it off-hand or main-hand. Shaman with mixed enchants on their off hand only gladiator weapons will now pay the price of re-enchanting.
An actual Real Problem at present:
Or blizzard changes nothing, and we have the mechanic that entering melee range with auto attack on delays your off hand by half a swing. In pvp, the shaman in question is always in and out of melee range, due to the jack rabbit jumping night elves he's trying to kill. The shaman takes the time to parse his battleground goodness and finds out that nearly every time executioner proc'd on his off hand weapon... a half swing time later his main hand would hit, but then the target got out of melee range before the Offhand could land again. Sure enough the buff was worn off before the time he got anything more than a main hand attack. So the shaman comes to this forum and asks the theoretical question, "If you only got one main hand attack per proc to gain the bonus of mongoose or executioneer, would there be a difference in what proc you chose?"
It's an undeinable fact that your opposite hand will enjoy the lion's share of a proc buff in a pvp environment... it probably won't be the 100% lopsided situation I described above, but it will be tilted in favor of your opposite hand.
This is not a pvp theorycrafting thread at heart, so naturally this thread doesn't currently have math that says it's even a significant difference. We know it's not a significant difference in PvE, since the shaman will enjoy the full duration of the buff, but in pvp, you will not enjoy the full duration and the opposite hand of the buff will be favored. By how much it's favored and what sort of difference this makes is more than I'll be able to ascertain during lunch today.
Edit: I did make a mistake with Refused's post about S1 gear, but it's an even easier choice in that area... both fist weapons are the worst choice you can make due to the off hand being 1.5 speed. Once you figure that out, it goes right back to me griping about handedness being the only significant difference.
On the topic of damage range numbers: Lots of people probably still believe that highest top-end damage is best for pvp, because it does in fact allow the highest single damage per hit, but that thought process is mired in the days prior to normalization when people were comparing weapons of different speed with massively different damage ranges.
Now the poor shaman must find a 1.5 second speed weapon in order to use frostbrand to its fullest.
Frostbrand is PPM so it should be used on the slowest weapons possible to take advantage of stormstrike. The only shaman enchant optimal for fast weapons is flametongue.
As an aside, I've tried to use Yo's sim, but I get back very odd AEP/EP values. I get AP = 1, Strength = 2 and nothing else (Agi, etc) Don't know what that points to, but I've tried all sorts of values and it always comes back with just those 2 fields filled.
That sounds like you didn't click the box that actuallly says "compute AEP"
Or maybe you just didn't wait long enough. For me, the sim takes a good 6 minutes or so to run through 10k hours, and there's no real visual feedback that it's actually started running when you click the button.
So you're telling me theres no PvE differance between Main Hand only and Off Hand only weapons, just some crazy theory on One handed weapons being better cause u can switch mongoose or executioner if blizz changes game mechanics, right?
Or maybe you just didn't wait long enough. For me, the sim takes a good 6 minutes or so to run through 10k hours, and there's no real visual feedback that it's actually started running when you click the button.
I have to mash the button untill I see firefox spike to 50% cpu (dual core 4tl in this case.) Sometimes I cant get it to run, sometimes I can.
I'm going to vote for 'Didn't wait long enough'.
I really had no clue how long the sim took to run, so was just waiting until the screen updated with some of the other numbers, which was only 30-45 seconds. Will try again tonight at home, since I can not get the Java installed at work
Yes I've been hoping that Yo would add some sort of visual feedback for quite some time now. Ideally a progress bar that lets you know how many hours its computed already.
I didn't see it mentioned anywhere and after searching the thread I didn't find it so I'll go ahead and post it.
There is a very nice ring from the timed event in ZA, which beats all but one ring in the game right now. Considering how easy it is to complete 3 timed bosses in ZA, I thought it was worth mentioning.
With my AEP values (AP = 1, Str = 2.2, Agi = 2.0, Crit = 2.05, Hit Rating = 2.08, Haste = 1.89 and Armor Penetration = 0.43) that netted a value of 168.18 AEP vs 182.58 AEP on Stormrage Signet Ring (which is an Illidan drop!). In comparison, [Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring], [Ring of Deceitful Intent] and [Band of the Ranger-General] come out with 140.7, 139.52 and 150.84 AEP respectively.
With entry AEP values, the ring nets a 134.44 AEP value and with t5 AEP values we get 149.28 AEP. Still pretty damn solid for such an 'easy' to get ring. I felt it was worth mentioning, just because of how easy it is to get.
I didn't see it mentioned anywhere and after searching the thread I didn't find it so I'll go ahead and post it.
There is a very nice ring from the timed event in ZA, which beats all but one ring in the game right now. Considering how easy it is to complete 3 timed bosses in ZA, I thought it was worth mentioning.
With my AEP values (AP = 1, Str = 2.2, Agi = 2.0, Crit = 2.05, Hit Rating = 2.08, Haste = 1.89 and Armor Penetration = 0.43) that netted a value of 168.18 AEP vs 182.58 AEP on Stormrage Signet Ring (which is an Illidan drop!). In comparison, [Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring], [Ring of Deceitful Intent] and [Band of the Ranger-General] come out with 140.7, 139.52 and 150.84 AEP respectively.
With entry AEP values, the ring nets a 134.44 AEP value and with t5 AEP values we get 149.28 AEP. Still pretty damn solid for such an 'easy' to get ring. I felt it was worth mentioning, just because of how easy it is to get.
Firstly... as someone with that ring (and the Trinket from ZA... yes very happy shaman!) I'd like to say that is not 'easy' to get, it requires pretty much chain pulling and nuking of the first three bosses, for a karazhan running guild.. this isn't doable, for a mid T5 guild it's doable but still wouldn't be easy. A T6 farming guild can easily do it, which makes it perfect ilvl for comparison to the bloodboil rings etc. We've yet to complete the full 4-chest timed run though, last time ran out of time when lynx was on 10%.. so 10 seconds short of the timer, and this is with a raid of full T6 people.
It may seem easy to you, hell it does to me we've yet to wipe on any boss in ZA, but likes just like Illidan is 'easy' once you've killed him 10 times
Back on topic though, yeah it's a really nice ring. I'm using it + hyjal exalted one. Plan to get a stormrage signet instead of hyjal ring once they finally start dropping...
*edit - Blizzard specifically said they tailored the timed run rewards for T6 level raiders, to add challenge (and reward) to the instance, can't find the blue post though.
Hm, it depends in which order you do it. Last week I remember doing a clear (3/4 timed, the last one is quite hard you're right about that) and that was with alts and just 3/10 people being in tier 6, we had 7 or so 8 minutes left after #3. Plus someone respeccing to heal us. I'd certainly say it's "easy" if you go Eagle -> Bear -> Lynx (or Bear -> Eagle -> Lynx). Remember the chest's loot is determined from what # boss you just killed, not the boss itself.
But yeah, maybe my vision is a bit blurred by the fact it seems so easy with tier 6 ^^. Just wanted to point the ring out.
Hm, it depends in which order you do it. Last week I remember doing a clear (3/4 timed, the last one is quite hard you're right about that) and that was with alts and just 3/10 people being in tier 6, we had 7 or so 8 minutes left after #3. Plus someone respeccing to heal us. I'd certainly say it's "easy" if you go Eagle -> Bear -> Lynx (or Bear -> Eagle -> Lynx). Remember the chest's loot is determined from what # boss you just killed, not the boss itself.
But yeah, maybe my vision is a bit blurred by the fact it seems so easy with tier 6 ^^. Just wanted to point the ring out.
Have to remember even though they are alts, they are alts of people who've cleared all content (I assume) and thus have the level of player ability/co-ordination required for T6. Gear isn't everything... or so they say
I have calculated some ap->spell damage->dps->ep coeffiecent and how its changes others stats values. I know that Rob have doing this earlier but he didnt calculated searing totem. Debuffs assumed coe(not talented), misery and imp. scorch. I assume nature's guidance and 5% spell crit(1.025multiplier.
1ap = 0.3 spell damage
How much dps this adds to these spells assuming perfect rotation.
Now I have to assume how good/tight/perfect is raiding shaman rotation.
searing 95% uptime . flame shock 80%(every 15s). earth shock 80%(every 15s)
I feel those are pretty high estimates.
Fs * upTime + Es * upTime + St * upTime
0.008586 + 0.0079336 + 0.0218756 = 0.383952dps
and 1dps is around 4ep
0.383952dps = 0.1535808ep
and that means 1ap is 1.1535808ep
becouse 1ap is allways 1ep we have to normalize all values by dividing those ~1.15 or multiply 0.867 (1 / 1.15..)
Feel free correct me if i have done some mistakes.
With my AEP values (AP = 1, Str = 2.2, Agi = 2.0, Crit = 2.05, Hit Rating = 2.08, Haste = 1.89 and Armor Penetration = 0.43) that netted a value of 168.18 AEP vs 182.58 AEP on Stormrage Signet Ring (which is an Illidan drop!).
I haven't been diligently reading this thread like I used to, but is .43 an average high end raid EP for ArP? I remember this value being around .28, but increasing depending on the amount of ArP you already have.
The sim shows Armor Penetration becoming ever more important the higher your other stats seem to get. Late T5 and early T6 it approaches 0.33 and seems to shoot up from there.
I've been reading through this thread for some time, and learned quite alot about the class i play.
A few questions still plaque my mind, i've been searching alot for the AEP of the t5 set bonus. On page 101 it was suggested that it was 115.91 AEP. So i was wondetring if anyone can confirm this number so i can decide to ditch 4 pieces of gear to replace them with t5's to see if it will currently increase or decrease my dps.
Another ting is the following, i'm using [Dragonstrike] in my MH and [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler] in my offhand. I havent found the mention of this weapon too much, but would it be worth to take [Rod of the Sun King] for my offhand, despite the cries "warr/rogueweapon", the lack of useful stats, but to get the same speed and higher top end damage and base dps then my current one.
A few questions still plaque my mind, i've been searching alot for the AEP of the t5 set bonus. On page 101 it was suggested that it was 115.91 AEP. So i was wondetring if anyone can confirm this number so i can decide to ditch 4 pieces of gear to replace them with t5's to see if it will currently increase or decrease my dps.
The way that I had calculated the value of that set bonus was to multiply my value for haste (~2 EP at the time) by the amount needed to achieve 5% (15.7), and then multiply it by my flurry uptime (83% at the time). For me, I remember the bonus being worth about 110 EP. It was such a worthwhile bonus that I had to pick up several good BT/Hyjal items (Midnight Chesguard, Shoulders of the Hidden Predator, and Bow-stitched Leggings) before it was worth breaking up the set. I just took the best single-piece upgrade that I had (the legs at the time) and kept 4 pieces of T5. It was an amazing bonus. If only the bonuses on T6 were that good...
I am trying to get a handle on the Enh Shammy and am loving it so far. I think what would help me now is some sort of unbuffed stat goals. As all the best AEP gear seems to be Agil from Rogue/Hunter gear pools. I.E. I need more help trying to see where to draw the line for like str/AP vs Agil AEP.
Something like:
Unbuffed Kara ready:
AP 1200
Crit 25%
.
.
Unbuffed SSC/TK ready:
AT 1700
Crit 27%
Hit Rating 120
Another ting is the following, i'm using [Dragonstrike] in my MH and [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler] in my offhand. I havent found the mention of this weapon too much, but would it be worth to take [Rod of the Sun King] for my offhand, despite the cries "warr/rogueweapon", the lack of useful stats, but to get the same speed and higher top end damage and base dps then my current one.
Cheers.
If your guild can down Kael with some regularity that you're considering the [Rod of the Sun King] why not let that item go to Rogues/Warriors and you get [Rising Tide] or [Syphon of the Nathrezim] both of which drop of cake bosses in BT. If the Rod is going to be sharded, then sure, it's a DPS increase over your Pummeler. If I were you, I'd just wait for Rising Tide or the Nathrezim ... both of which has dropped for my guilds Shaman in the last couple nights.
11/28/07, 12:29 PM
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