Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 214

Paradox · 11/30/07, 4:36 PM

Originally Posted by Sinmul

If your guild can down Kael with some regularity that you're considering the [Rod of the Sun King] why not let that item go to Rogues/Warriors and you get [Rising Tide] or [Syphon of the Nathrezim] both of which drop of cake bosses in BT. If the Rod is going to be sharded, then sure, it's a DPS increase over your Pummeler. If I were you, I'd just wait for Rising Tide or the Nathrezim ... both of which has dropped for my guilds Shaman in the last couple nights.

-sin

And my friends guild has 3 rogues with full Warglaive sets, and others with none.. you might never see a Syphon or RT in your life

it's all about the drop rates!

Toots Hepcat · 11/30/07, 5:05 PM

Originally Posted by anvilkicker

I am trying to get a handle on the Enh Shammy and am loving it so far. I think what would help me now is some sort of unbuffed stat goals. As all the best AEP gear seems to be Agil from Rogue/Hunter gear pools. I.E. I need more help trying to see where to draw the line for like str/AP vs Agil AEP.

The problem with stat goals is there is no line to draw. If the EP for your gear indicates that STR is worth 2 EP, and AGI 1.7, then that is all you need to evaluate two pieces of gear. Replacing a theoretical green of 20 STR (40 EP) with one with 24 AGI (40.8 EP) would be, over time, an upgrade, even if it dropped you below some imaginary line.

Weapons play a very important a role in your overall DPS. For a while I had guildies with lower AP and crit who put out comparable dps due to better weapons. Good news here is you can be dual wielding 91.1 weapons after a couple hours of AV (no matter how bad you are).

A good metric might be your unbuffed DPS while farming level 70+ non-elite mobs (say, the demons in Blade's Edge). I think I was about 350dps while farming when I first went to Karazhan. For a 16-dps raid to bring down Gruul in 8 minutes with no deaths will take an average of 442 dps per person.

Mox · 11/30/07, 8:49 PM

Originally Posted by anvilkicker

Hello all,

I am trying to get a handle on the Enh Shammy and am loving it so far. I think what would help me now is some sort of unbuffed stat goals. As all the best AEP gear seems to be Agil from Rogue/Hunter gear pools. I.E. I need more help trying to see where to draw the line for like str/AP vs Agil AEP.

Something like:

Unbuffed Kara ready:
AP 1200
Crit 25%

Unbuffed SSC/TK ready:
AT 1700
Crit 27%
Hit Rating 120

Any help is much appreciated guys!

You wont hit 1700 AP/27% crit at entry level SSC/TK... The best way to balance your stats is aim to get your crit upto like 30% (at this point you should easily have 1400+ AP) and then get gear that increases your AP but doesn't decrease your crit, altho you didnt say what you currently raid.

Mox · 11/30/07, 8:51 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

A good metric might be your unbuffed DPS while farming level 70+ non-elite mobs (say, the demons in Blade's Edge). I think I was about 350dps while farming when I first went to Karazhan. For a 16-dps raid to bring down Gruul in 8 minutes with no deaths will take an average of 442 dps per person.

Is that auto attack dps with 1 wep? To kill gruul you need ALOT more than 442 dps per person.

Kombinat · 12/01/07, 2:57 AM

Originally Posted by Mox

Is that auto attack dps with 1 wep? To kill gruul you need ALOT more than 442 dps per person.

Gruul has 3.415 million hp.

Divide by 16, gives 213,473.5

8 minutes is 480 seconds, so divide by 480 to give 444.6 dps.

If you'd like to retract your comment, feel free to do so.

Atren · 12/01/07, 3:42 AM

I want to see you do full dps to gruul 100% time. Furtheron 8 minutes is 16 growths -- if your dps is that bad i doubt tanks can survive that long.

anvilkicker · 12/01/07, 3:55 AM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

The problem with stat goals is there is no line to draw. If the EP for your gear indicates that STR is worth 2 EP, and AGI 1.7, then that is all you need to evaluate two pieces of gear. Replacing a theoretical green of 20 STR (40 EP) with one with 24 AGI (40.8 EP) ...

...
A good metric might be your unbuffed DPS while farming level 70+ non-elite mobs (say, the demons in Blade's Edge). I think I was about 350dps while farming when I first went to Karazhan. For a 16-dps raid to bring down Gruul in 8 minutes with no deaths will take an average of 442 dps per person.

DPS, AEP, AP/STR/Crit all good, just some valid standard is what I'm after! THanks for some metrics to use!

My guild is currently doing Kara, ZA, Gruul, and Lurker.

eh, i need to get recount or something better at monitoring Damage Done and DPS!

Thanks again!

Mox · 12/01/07, 8:44 AM

Originally Posted by Kombinat

Gruul has 3.415 million hp.

Divide by 16, gives 213,473.5

8 minutes is 480 seconds, so divide by 480 to give 444.6 dps.

If you'd like to retract your comment, feel free to do so.

I'd like to see anyone who actually does 444.6 dps at lvl 70, I was doing more than that at lvl 60.

Furthermore, as pointed out, 8 minutes is stupidly long time to kill gruul and will almost certainly result in tank death(s). Most guilds will kill gruul in 8-10 growths, therefor aiming to do a minimum dps of "444.6" is the most retarded way ever to kill a boss and shouldn't be posted as it's not helpful at all.

vorda · 12/01/07, 8:57 AM

8-10 growths

We'r going way offtopic here, but back when we killed gruul, we considered 15 growths to be pretty damn good for a first kill. (this was before everyone and their alts had arena weapons, kara items were buffed etc)

Mox · 12/01/07, 9:03 AM

Originally Posted by vorda

We'r going way offtopic here, but back when we killed gruul, we considered 15 growths to be pretty damn good for a first kill. (this was before everyone and their alts had arena weapons, kara items were buffed etc)

Yes, I agree. Back when I first killed him we took around 15 growths, but this was months and months ago before he had been nerfed. I was purely stating that no one should walk into a fight with the idea of doing the minimum dps required, everyone should be doing 100% dps which is alot more than 444.6.

Malan · 12/01/07, 9:10 AM

Hey how about we stop talking about Gruul eh?

Beowolf · 12/01/07, 1:21 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Hey how about we stop talking about Gruul eh?

But hes so squishy and cute, Malan :P

Foxx2405 · 12/01/07, 7:09 PM

I have a question here...

A few days ago my guild was clearing some bosses in SSC and usually im in a kinda default group of a fury warrior (DW), 1-2 combat sword rogues and 1-2 bm hunters...

In such cases i just use windfury totem, no big deal there....

This time though the group setup was different....

We had 1 fury warrior, 1 feral druid, 2 BM hunters and me as enh shaman

Now im logically following the advise this site gives, because it thrives on some excelent theorycrafting, which im not unfamiliair with...
So in first case i was putting down the windfury totem for the warrior...

However the feral druid, who also has a shaman alt, and knows a lot of the theorycrafting was kinda supprised that GoA in such a situation wasnt better...

Basically only the warrior benefitted from WF totem...
Whereas GoA totem was beneficial for: The warrior (crit), me (crit), the feral druid (crit + ap) and the BM hunters (crit + AP) and in a certain way the hunters pets too...
So we have 5 people + 2 pets benefitting from GoA and only 1 from windfury... you could say 6 times as much

I thought he had a solid point... i know WF totem adds a lot of dps for the warrior, but is it so much that it benefits "6 times as much" as GoA does ?

I run into more of these situations where i think that the choice between the 2 is hard...
1-2 BM hunters nearly always run with the raids and benefit from my totems, and sometimes we have a combat dagger rogue so you get groups like:

Fury warrior
Enh Shaman
Dagger rogue
BM hunter
BM hunter

------

I was just wondering what people's look on this is... is the "Warrior means WF totem" rule a must for all situation or are these "extremes" an exception ?

Shabadu · 12/01/07, 7:20 PM

Originally Posted by Foxx2405

Fury warrior
Enh Shaman
Dagger rogue
BM hunter
BM hunter

------

I was just wondering what people's look on this is... is the "Warrior means WF totem" rule a must for all situation or are these "extremes" an exception ?

I think this is more a problem with your group setup. If you have 2 BM hunters, you're best building a Shadow priest/resto shaman/feral druid/2xhunter group and then building a warrior/rogue group around your enhance shaman. We're not seeing what other members you're bringing in order to build a group or 2 that maximizes the benefit of windfury.

Rhagok · 12/01/07, 7:39 PM

I´m not totally sure about this, but does the BM Buff really stack? I mean, why don´t you just split the BM Hunters and give your Caster DPS another nice Dmg boost. This would definitely increase your DPS further besides the discussion about which Totem to put down.

And on this topic
First of all why don´t you use both?
So if you are not fond of Twisting, or you can´t / don´t like to do it, whatever reason ...
I would in your No. 1 scenario in which anyone but the Warrior would benefit from GoA more then from WF use GoA.
In scenario 2 considering the Rogue ... I´m not sure.

Anyway, get your BM Hunters on different teams and go get some decent melee dps so you don´t come into really strange Situations like that ^

Patonus · 12/01/07, 8:22 PM

Has anyone done the math in regards to Stonebreaker Totem and its cooldown?

Is it better to spam shocks every 6 sec cooldown or is it better dps to wait for the 10 sec cooldown to occur to refresh the Elemental Strength?

What I've done lately is spam shocks until I get the proc. Then, I wait the 10 secs before I shock again so I don't have to wait 12 secs instead. Or is this a common sense question and shocking every cooldown is better?

Myul · 12/01/07, 8:46 PM

Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

Uptime is lower then might expected. Around 35% on average, resulting in ~ 35 EP.

Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

10s internal CD.

And last but not least, from the Post #1 in this thread:
"Conclusion: The Stonebreaker totem should be superior to the Totem of Astral Winds on average if the shaman can shock at least once every 14 seconds. Note that Stonebreaker has a 10 second hidden cooldown."

Did you relly read through it?

Rob · 12/01/07, 9:04 PM

Originally Posted by Rhagok

I´m not totally sure about this, but does the BM Buff really stack?

Yes, it stacks.

Originally Posted by Foxx2405

I was just wondering what people's look on this is... is the "Warrior means WF totem" rule a must for all situation or are these "extremes" an exception ?

You're looking at an extreme which is an exception, yes. In this case, assuming you are constrained to not twisting, you should drop GoA. But swap one of those hunters for a rogue and I'd have said to drop WF. Rhetorical question: were there no rogues on your raid, or was your group setup just really bad?

Originally Posted by Myul

Did you relly read through it?

I'll turn this back around at you and ask if you really read through the post you're responding to. You didn't link him anything that addresses his actual question.

Originally Posted by Patonus

Is it better to spam shocks every 6 sec cooldown or is it better dps to wait for the 10 sec cooldown to occur to refresh the Elemental Strength?

What I've done lately is spam shocks until I get the proc. Then, I wait the 10 secs before I shock again so I don't have to wait 12 secs instead. Or is this a common sense question and shocking every cooldown is better?

IMO, this doesn't lend itself that well to a mathematical calculation; it would be better to play-test both scenarios. Nevertheless, here's a shot at it.

If you assume 35% uptime on the buff, you have a 35% chance of waiting 10 seconds instead of 6 seconds to shock. Let's use 1/3 uptime to make our math really easy: instead of shocking 3 times in 3*6 = 18 seconds, you shock 3 times in 2*6+10 = 22 seconds. So your shock DPS drops proportionately, to 18/22 of the original DPS, or 82%.

The benefit you gain is that you take your uptime from that 35% number to ~50%. Instead of 38.5 EP, it's worth 55 EP. A ballpark number might say that you can get about 1 DPS from 4 AP, so that 16.5 EP difference is worth 4 DPS. Then if 18% of your shock DPS was more than 4 DPS, you did worse by waiting; i.e. if your shock DPS was greater than 22.2, you did worse by waiting. I can be wrong on the 4 AP->1 DPS conversion by a factor of 4 (and I don't find it at all likely that 1 AP will give you 1 DPS) and your shock DPS would still only have to be a bit under 100.

That makes it pretty clear to me that if mana's no concern, don't wait for the Stonebreaker Totem cooldown to run out -- just shock when your shock cooldown is up.

Xoya · 12/01/07, 9:58 PM

What about in a situation where you are totem twisting, so you generally only shock once every 10 seconds, right on cooldown? Generally the totem buff has not fallen off at that point.

Patonus · 12/02/07, 4:55 AM

Originally Posted by Myul

Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

Uptime is lower then might expected. Around 35% on average, resulting in ~ 35 EP.

Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

10s internal CD.

And last but not least, from the Post #1 in this thread:
"Conclusion: The Stonebreaker totem should be superior to the Totem of Astral Winds on average if the shaman can shock at least once every 14 seconds. Note that Stonebreaker has a 10 second hidden cooldown."

Did you relly read through it?

Speaking of really reading through it, you obviously didn't read what I was asking at all.

Rob on the other hand, understood what I was asking and answered my question. Thanks Rob!

Patonus · 12/02/07, 5:01 AM

Originally Posted by Xoya

What about in a situation where you are totem twisting, so you generally only shock once every 10 seconds, right on cooldown? Generally the totem buff has not fallen off at that point.

I would say yes, just wait for that cooldown.

I have been able to Totem Twist and still spam shocks more often than once every Twist rotation.

WF - GoA - FS - SS - ES and repeat. Eventually the shocks catch up to the twisting cooldown and you either have to twist early or hold the shock till you are finished with the twist.

It's when you do WF - GoA - SS - FS where you can't do another shock or the WF buff will expire due to GCD.

Xoya · 12/02/07, 7:11 AM

Originally Posted by Patonus

WF - GoA - FS - SS - ES and repeat. Eventually the shocks catch up to the twisting cooldown and you either have to twist early or hold the shock till you are finished with the twist.

Maybe I just need to rework my twisting macros, then. Currently I do SS -> WF -> GOA -> ES, repeat. I've been trying to work flame shock in there, so SS -> FS -> WF -> GOA -> ES, but it can be annoying remembering which one to use. Maybe I should just make a castsequence for FS -> ES. Hmm. Yes, time to go do that!

Foxx2405 · 12/02/07, 7:55 AM

Originally Posted by Rhagok

I´m not totally sure about this, but does the BM Buff really stack? I mean, why don´t you just split the BM Hunters and give your Caster DPS another nice Dmg boost. This would definitely increase your DPS further besides the discussion about which Totem to put down.

And on this topic
First of all why don´t you use both?
So if you are not fond of Twisting, or you can´t / don´t like to do it, whatever reason ...
I would in your No. 1 scenario in which anyone but the Warrior would benefit from GoA more then from WF use GoA.
In scenario 2 considering the Rogue ... I´m not sure.

Anyway, get your BM Hunters on different teams and go get some decent melee dps so you don´t come into really strange Situations like that ^

Ok...

First of all in this particular situation we didnt have rogues... We could move a hunter to a different group but that means we'd have to switch a mage / warlock back for it... Which seems to me to not be a super solution, and since the buff stacks, it doesnt matter really

We normally have a decent group setup so that its fairly clear, im just talking about these extreme situtions

-----

On totem twisting, yes ive used that for a long time, and at a certain moment it payed off really...

But i found that for one it screws up with shock rotation, and on top there are certain situations where im on special duties, either purging or interrupting where i really cant use the twisting methode, so i have to pick 1 out of the 2 totems...

I guess ill recreate my totem twist macro again for those situations where i dont need to do such thing (i lost all my macros in a pc crash so in the example i was mentioning i didnt have my totem twist macro at hand

cerberos · 12/02/07, 2:47 PM

Hello all,

First of all gratz to this forum, as its a valuable vault of information

World of Warcraft have many myths that users transfer them from realm to realm, so with your help, lets have some final answers

The following is PvE Specced questions

01) Enh Shaman needs slow weapons. Ench Shaman with fast weapons, doesnt know to play at all. (true/false)
02) Enh Shaman best relic is Astral Winds (true/false)
03) Enh Shaman best relic is Stonebreaker's Totem (from Badges) (true/false)
04) Enh Shaman must have at least 200 Hit Rating, so he can produce serious damage (true/false)
05) Enh Shaman must have 150 max hit rating, so he can produce serious damage (true/false)
06) Enh Shaman doesnt need ap gems. He must have instead strength gems equipped (true/false)
07) Enh Shaman doest need much ap. After 1600-1700, is useless (true/false)
08) Enh Shaman doesnt need much Critical Rating. After 24-25% is useless (true/false)
09) Enh Shaman must play always with Strength Totem, Agility if he have Drood on the party else Wf for the rogues / tanks. (true/false)
10) Enh Shaman must enchant on weapon is +20Strength. Mongoose is useless for him (true/false)
11) Enh Shaman must enchants are Executioner + Mongoose (true/false)
12) Enh Shaman to be best equipped, must have equipment from other classes, like rogues for example. With only mail, Enh shaman cant do serious damage (true/false)

Those were the biggest myths (?) i have heared till now

Maybe some of them are true, some are false

Just True / False, from someone who knows what he does

Sorry that all are for Enh shaman, i dont have knowledge for other specs

Rob · 12/02/07, 2:56 PM

1) True for the first part, not necessarily true for the second part.
2) False
3) True
4) False
5) False
6) True
7) False
8) False
9) False
10) False
11) True
12) True for the first part, false for the second part.