In the OP it states that the Syphon, Dragonstrike, and Rising Tide are all fairly close to each other in terms of DPS.
My question is, what is the most desired/perfect combination? I have Dragonstrike currently and will get the Syphon/Tide whenever they drop, but I don't want to take something I won't use.
What would you take if you could have any of the desired combinations?
EDIT- The proc from Dragonstrike is the only haste item I have currently and picking up a DST is not an option as my guild no longer runs Gruuls lair at all. Is the haste proc worth keeping it this late into the raiding game?
In the top right hand corner this a function called "Search this thread". This topic has been discussed a billion times and is easily searched. The best combination is a pair of s3 weapons, which I will go on a limb and say here in 2-3 weeks anyone that doesn't put crayons up their nose should be able to attain. My first week as elemental with s1 gear and a few team mates in similar situations were able to hit 1850 with a few nights of work.
Son, to me a robot's just a garbage can with sparks comin' out it.
In the OP it states that the Syphon, Dragonstrike, and Rising Tide are all fairly close to each other in terms of DPS.
My question is, what is the most desired/perfect combination? I have Dragonstrike currently and will get the Syphon/Tide whenever they drop, but I don't want to take something I won't use.
What would you take if you could have any of the desired combinations?
EDIT- The proc from Dragonstrike is the only haste item I have currently and picking up a DST is not an option as my guild no longer runs Gruuls lair at all. Is the haste proc worth keeping it this late into the raiding game?
using 3.70 ep for the off hand (which is not accurate for Syphon)
Syphon has 370.74 ep
and
Rising Tide has 370.74 + 73.4 ep
Now the Syphon ep for off hand should actually be greater than 3.7
To be better than Rising Tide it would have to be 4.43 ep about a 20% increase.
Now I don't know what the ep is for a 2.8 speed off hand, but I would assume that it is less than 20% off of a 2.6 speed
In the top right hand corner this a function called "Search this thread". This topic has been discussed a billion times and is easily searched. The best combination is a pair of s3 weapons, which I will go on a limb and say here in 2-3 weeks anyone that doesn't put crayons up their nose should be able to attain. My first week as elemental with s1 gear and a few team mates in similar situations were able to hit 1850 with a few nights of work.
Ugh, it's retarded that PVP weapons end up being the best weapons for PVE. Oh well...
I tried the search thing twice and couldn't find what I was looking for, probably just search-dumb.
First of all in this particular situation we didnt have rogues... We could move a hunter to a different group but that means we'd have to switch a mage / warlock back for it... Which seems to me to not be a super solution, and since the buff stacks, it doesnt matter really
We normally have a decent group setup so that its fairly clear, im just talking about these extreme situtions
I'd like to ask a few more things about the windfury vs grace of air in extreme group setups
In the example, we had a shaman, druid, warrior, BM hunter, BM hunter group and the question was whether it would be more beneficial to use grace of air or windfury. This was an odd raid setup with no rogues, and personally I'd rather put a hunter in a melee group, than a mage/warlock who'd be losing wrath of air and a shadow priest. Would I be correct to assume, that the old "if there's a warrior in the group, drop windfury" would be more accurate as "Drop windfury, if there's a warrior in the group and at least one other benefiting from it"? Or would windfury still generate more dps for the whole group in this situation too? I'm also interested in knowing what would be the correct totem to use for maximum raid dps in some of the more borderline situations. For example:
Could anyone point me to any threads with some more detailed theorycrafting on the benefits of windfury and grace of air to different classes? I know grace of air adds 121 attack power and 4% crit to me as a feral druid, which according to the ToskksDPSGearMethod calculator would increase my theoretical dps by a bit over 50. However, I don't know how accurate this is, and I have nothing to compare it with.
A rogue or a hunter would gain 107 attack power and something like 2.4% critical chance from an enhancement shamans grace of air if I calculated it correctly. How big of a damage increase would this be compared to windfury on a rogue/warrior for example? I would appreciate if you could point me to the correct information source.
Without a doubt, drop Windfury if 2*Warriors + 2*Ret Paladins + Rogues > Feral Druids + Hunters.
Without a doubt, drop GoA if Feral Druids + Hunters > 2*Warriors + 2*Ret Paladins + Rogues.
This leaves the theoretical borderline case where the sides of the equation are equivalent: e.g. {rogue, rogue, hunter, hunter, enhancement shaman} or even the {warrior, feral, hunter, enhancement shaman, caster/healer} that might occur in a 10 man group. Either way, there frankly is no 100% definitive answer for this situation: it will depend on how well-geared and well-played the various classes are; and if the Warrior in your group is tanking, whether or not he would benefit more from threat/rage generation or avoidance.
Vulajin's math on WF vs GoA + Instant Poison for a combat sword rogue: Windfury Totem Change
His math shows about 60 DPS from GoA + IP, 80 from WF.
for me, I got about 35 DPS out of GoA last time I checked. That was in T5 gear but I think Vulajin's calculations are for an approximately T5-geared rogue.
A druid friend of mine ran the numbers through some druid spreadsheet or other and got 45 DPS in T5-ish gear for GoA.
I'd expect a T5 ret paladin to gain 150-200 DPS from WF. Not only does it straight-up give them 20% more white swings, but as I recall the extra swings give them 20% more judgement procs. I'd assume they'd gain about the same as enh shamans from GoA.
I've never seen real data on hunters, mut rogues, or warriors.
The problem is warriors. A warrior's DPS gain from WF is going to be hard to calculate because of rage generation, and I've never seen any reliable math on it. If I remember right though, GoA clocks in at under 30 DPS for a T5-geared warrior.
Using Cheeky's excellent spreadsheet, on a 7700 AC level 73 Boss (I selected Morogrim, because this is usually the fight for which my WWS parses are the closest to my spreadsheet-simulated DPS) :
With standard raid (damage) buffs (BoK, imp. BoM, LotP, GotW, Scroll of AGI, AGI food, flask of relentless assault) for me, and for my cat pet (obviously, same buffs, minus the flask, and agi food replaced by STR food), my simulated DPS is :
Hunter : 1043.23
Pet : 475.8
= 1519.03
[my stats, with this setup, are 2307 AP, 34.63% crit, 100% hit]
If I add an improved GoA Totem and an improved SoE totem (benefits the pet's PA), the simulated DPS becomes :
Hunter : 1088.07
Pet : 541.04
= 1629.11
[my stats then are 2404 AP, 37.05% crit, 100% hit]
This is with a never-wearing-off hunter's mark, 5 Sunders and a Faerie Fire on the boss (I didn't factor in CoR).
The 1500 DPS number might be a little "over the top". I think the best I ever did on Morogrim (that means never being bubbled, and being extra lucky on crits, etc) was around 1200 (I probably forgot some obvious stuff in the spreadsheet's settings, but can't seem to find what).
I have a T5 (or equivalent) gear, and I'm BM-specced (41/20/00). I use a standard auto-steady rotation, and replace Steady Shot by Arcane- or Multi-shot whenever they're up (I consider mana a non-issue : our Paladins maintain JoW, and I use mana pots every cooldowns). I use trinkets, Bestial Wrath and Rapid Fire whenever they are up, as well as drums (Battle/War).
To fully evaluate the benefits of GoA for a BM hunter, you would have to consider that more AGI for the pet means more
crits, hence more FI uptime (I think my FI uptime is about 96 or 97% currently). That contributes to the added value of GoA for the group's DPS.
[e] Wow I somehow missed all the posts between this and the one I replied to, this was at the guy asking about all the weapon combos.
I think you missed the other part of the OP where it says that RisingTide/Syphon is almost exactly identical to Syphon/RisingTide, and same for any other weapon combo. Its really not a big deal which hand you put which T6 weapon in.
What would you take if you could have any of the desired combinations?
I am currently using DragonStrike/Rising Tide for my raiding needs (that is until I get Syphon, maybe this week!). I also toyed with Rising Tide/Netherbane for awhile, just for the stats boost, but the haste proc seems to be more worth it.
That being said, as soon as I get Syphon, it seems 375 Blacksmithing was a waste of time and money! Maybe Blizz will add some new BS plans in the future that become worth holding on to BS. Here's hoping.
I am currently using DragonStrike/Rising Tide for my raiding needs (that is until I get Syphon, maybe this week!). I also toyed with Rising Tide/Netherbane for awhile, just for the stats boost, but the haste proc seems to be more worth it.
That being said, as soon as I get Syphon, it seems 375 Blacksmithing was a waste of time and money lol! Maybe Blizz will add some new BS plans in the future that become worth holding on to BS. Here's hoping.
I invested into blacksmithing on that hope. Blizzard acted in such a way that I believed they would treat blacksmithing similarly to the arena, heroic badge, and honor point systems in that they would receive occasional updates. Now that items have caught up to the highest tier blacksmithing recipes we'll have to see if they add in upgraded options in the next content patch, perhaps something in the sunwell can unlock the fourth incarnation of our lovely hammer.
Question - what value are people using for Meta Gem sockets in Pawn? I need a better way to compare a helm with RED to a helm with 3 normal sockets. My current Pawn string just gives meta gems like 50 EP or so but it results in some odd values.
To determine my weighting for the meta socket, I always assume that I'm going to socket a RED, and then take the value of my Yo! simulated APEP for agility adding 20 for the increased crit effect, which is what I believe the rogues chose as a value on another thread on these forums.
http://elitistjerks.com/566730-post300.html
Ok so, that guy didn't exactly have the largest data set available but... 75% uptime for dual executioner? Might be something to look at. We'd need a longer test done with an actual shaman though.
I invested into blacksmithing on that hope. Blizzard acted in such a way that I believed they would treat blacksmithing similarly to the arena, heroic badge, and honor point systems in that they would receive occasional updates. Now that items have caught up to the highest tier blacksmithing recipes we'll have to see if they add in upgraded options in the next content patch, perhaps something in the sunwell can unlock the fourth incarnation of our lovely hammer.
I would have to find it again, but I believe there was a post about the Tier 4 blacksmithing plans being available from The Sunwell. Don't take this for gospel truth, but it seems somewhat likely as the weapons available to us in Black Temple and through Season 3 make the money and time invested in our Blacksmith creations worthless. If I can find the post again I will link it.
I downloaded the latest version of your simulator today, and I also managed to get my hands on the Berzerkers Call from ZA. I was using DST and TT, but now I'm using DST and BC. According to the main article, BC is worth about 10 more EP than TT. However, with BC and DST equipped, your simulator is showing me LOSING 20 DPS. Is there an error with your calculation, or is the loss of hit and crit really affecting me that much? (I only have 13.75% hit, 1600 ap and 28% crit now). Just thought I'd check.
Also, is your simulator taking into account armor penetration? I'm up to 420 passive + executioner enchant now.
300 was an optimistic value, I think most people were agreeing it could be worth 255ish, but that was when there was a lot of skepticism that it had the same uptime as Mongoose - which its become pretty clear that it does.
Originally Posted by Blue Poster in Warrior boards
* The off-hand Whirlwind attack does not proc flurry when it crits.
* If you have one charge of flurry remaining and crit with that attack, flurry does not proc/refresh
Both bugs will be fixed in a patch after 2.3.2
I added a small section at the bottom of the post for raid leaders. Just some basic info on how to examine WWS and the Armory to decide if an Enhance shaman is up to snuff.
300 was an optimistic value, I think most people were agreeing it could be worth 255ish, but that was when there was a lot of skepticism that it had the same uptime as Mongoose - which its become pretty clear that it does.
I did some math on it and found it to be worth ~313 armor penetration, assuming 36% uptime on the buff. I'll link the spreadsheet if I can find it later.
I have carefully read the entire OP, and the first 20 pages following. I do not think there are enough hours left in my life to read the entire thread. However, what I'm wondering seems to have been assumed (or demonstrated) before the first post. If anyone can point me to a good discussion of this I'd appreciate it.
My question is about the initial assumption that Str = 2EP, while Agi is = 1.8EP (give or take, and ignoring Kings). Here's a first cut at comparing the two.
Assume I do N% non-crit and C% crit hits. My total dps would be on average D * (N+2C), for some D (right?). WF, flurry, UR, and item procs will mean that D has multiple possible values during a fight, but overall it should average out to some number that is the same for crits and noncrits. (Maybe not entirely, due to +AP procs on crits, but I think it's very close anyway.) Since additional crits mean fewer noncrits, increasing crit chance by 1% (25 Agi) should increase your total dps by D (it goes up to D * ((N-1) + 2(C+1)) = D * (N+2C+1)).
The averaged "D" will be something close to your weapon dps plus your fully buffed AP, multiplied by the effect of flurry (say an avg. 25% for my toon, a little more or less depending on your crit rating, and see my closing caveat), multiplied by the effect of WF (an additional 36% less any inefficiencies in weapon speeds (?), plus an extra 475AP which I'll again leave out to simplify things), multiplied by (nearly) 10% for UR. I'm leaving out mongoose and other procs for now, and ignoring fights where you can't do constant damage, both because I think they have no impact, and because I want to keep this simple.
Let's also ignore the OH weapon entirely, since both AP and crits will be subject to the 50% reduction, and therefore it's immaterial to the analysis. Similarly, I'll ignore stormstrike. So if M = my main hand DPS, then for my toon this is my simplified non-crit dps:
D = (M + AP/14) * 1.25 * 1.36 * 1.10 = (M + AP/14) * 1.87
Now, recall that my overall DPS is D * (N+2C). This means that increasing my Agi by 25 (crit rate +1%) should directly increase my DPS by D. On the other hand, if I increase my Str by 25, the increase is:
(M + (AP + (2*Str))/14) * 1.87
------------------------------ which reduces to
(M + AP/14) * 1.87
14M + AP + 50
-------------
14M + AP
With (for example) 90dps and 1500AP, the change is (1260+1500+50)/(1260+1500) = 2810/2760... which is a 1.8% benefit, and totally shocking to me... I thought the benefit would be much smaller when I started typing this. Probably my original mistake was not realizing that the various multipliers (adding up to *1.87) produced equal benefits to +crit and +AP. High M versus AP will reduce the relative benefit of Str, but now it looks like that would have to be unreasonably large to tip the balance in favor of crit.
Of course I've left out a lot of things... flurry uptime, UR uptime, add'l on-crit procs (if you have them), plus other things I've probably forgotten. These bring the equation closer to parity for Agi - but by how much? I have to believe someone else has already modeled this... which brings me back to my original question, can someone please tell me where the relative value of +Agi/CR versus +Str/AP was originally modeled correctly?
Sorry for the long-winded post, it wound up producing unexpected results due to poorly-thought-out original assumptions. :-(
can someone please tell me where the relative value of +Agi/CR versus +Str/AP was originally modeled correctly?
Strength is worth 2.2 because 1 Strength = 2 AP = 2.2 AP with Kings. 1 point of Agility was valued using simulation to determine the change in DPS from steps in agility vs the same steps in attack power.
Malan -- great info. I don't get the bit about "flasks vs elixirs" being a reason for big differences in damage; Relentless Assault has only 10 EP more than Major Agility but on my server costs ten times more. Any non-progression raid where I intend to wipe fewer than 10 times, I use Major Agi.
In my experience, dps time is also a big determining factor in damage fluctuation, possibly equaling group makeup. Shamans who are talented runners, knowing exactly how far to run to escape some effect and when to run back, are going to put out more damage simply because they put in more time.
I'd probably throw something up there about weapon speed (since I still see a lot of unenlightened shamans running around with epic daggers, and yes I was once one), and probably a blurb about off-specs as well (Elemental having slightly higher personal DPS and Resto making for better versatility).
Question about DPS time: on fights with a lot of running, I generally hit Flame Shock as soon as I'm in range, then jam Stormstrike when I get close enough for that. This obviously increases my overall damage (since the shock cooldown is usually ready to go shortly after engaging the mob). But does it decrease the DPS stat? If I were "auditioning," would I be better off saving that first shock until after I had entered melee range?
Right but a Major Strength and a Flask have a 50 EP difference. I was mostly just showing how it all adds up. Just because Shaman A has a T4 helm, and Shaman B has a helm from a T4 instance does not make them "almost equal", the difference in AP/Crit/Hit adds up over all those gear differences and really makes an impact.
DPS time - I think either way you're going to have 95-99% dps time anyways, not that big of a deal. DPS time really is just something to check out when a guy has 1200 DPS but only like 5% activity time. Its for your bullshit meter to start sounding alarms.
12/04/07, 1:21 AM
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