Ok so, that guy didn't exactly have the largest data set available but... 75% uptime for dual executioner? Might be something to look at. We'd need a longer test done with an actual shaman though.
Well, he also got 50% uptime for single Executioner in conditions where he couldn't miss or be dodged. If we can correlate this with our observed Executioner uptime of 36% on endgame content, doesn't this imply a dual Executioner uptime of around 54%?
PS: No, this doesn't significantly increase the EP for hit rating. I just ran a sim on my gear with NO procs:HR was worth 1.57, then a sim with Dragonstrike, dual Mongoose, Dragonspine and Hourglass: HR was worth 1.58.
Pb -- it was my goal to research whether having a lot of procs available would change the value of hit rating in a dramatic way, and it looks like it doesn't. (Plus Mongoose is the more valuable of the four procs I tested and certainly doesn't have a cooldown).
Thanks for the math on double exec.; I have trouble setting up statistics problems. I'd ask my wife, but then I'd have to tell her what it was for.
Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/05/07 at 3:34 PM.
Mongoose: 120 agi, 2% haste (~31 haste rating). I get about a 1.75 AEP value for both agi and haste. 151 *1.75 = 264 AEP
Executioner: 840 armor penetration, which has about a .3 AEP value for me. 840 *0.3 = 252 AEP
Both buffs last 15 seconds, and it looks like both enchants have the same proc rate. My stat weights are fairly typical and I'm getting that a mongoose proc has a higher AEP value than an executioner proc.
It looks to me like dual mongoose beats out mongoose/exe. Am I missing something?
Mongoose: 120 agi, 2% haste (~31 haste rating). I get about a 1.75 AEP value for both agi and haste. 151 *1.75 = 264 AEP
Executioner: 840 armor penetration, which has about a .3 AEP value for me. 840 *0.3 = 252 AEP
Both buffs last 15 seconds, and it looks like both enchants have the same proc rate. My stat weights are fairly typical and I'm getting that a mongoose proc has a higher AEP value than an executioner proc.
It looks to me like dual mongoose beats out mongoose/exe. Am I missing something?
With my EP values both are on par, but in the end mongoose always wins, because of the much higher use outside of raids.
300 was an optimistic value, I think most people were agreeing it could be worth 255ish, but that was when there was a lot of skepticism that it had the same uptime as Mongoose - which its become pretty clear that it does.
321 was the amount I solved for given a 37% uptime
318 given a 36% (as those were the two most likely candidates at the time)
If you take the dps increase provided by the Executioner proc and multiply it by the uptime, and then attempt to find a value that gives the same increase with 100% uptime you will likely produce the same results (depending on the boss initial armor, I assumed full sunders and FF)
Interestingly enough, at 25% uptime, it was closer to 200 than 240
BTW I made an All-in-one spam macro after talking about Twist rotations.
/castsequence reset=8/combat Windfury Totem, Flame Shock(Rank 7), Grace of Air Totem, Stormstrike, Earth Shock(Rank 8)
What you will see happening is you'll go through the sequence and when you get to Earth Shock, you have to wait from the Flame Shock cooldown, then you Earth Shock and as you do that WF buff is about to fade and you refresh WF.
Second time you go through the sequence, you then have to wait for Flame Shock to come back up and by that time the WF totem will refresh allowing a fresh 9 seconds and then you go into Grace of Air.
It works out perfectly. Only difference is you lose 4 seconds of non Grace of Air-ness heh.
BTW I made an All-in-one spam macro after talking about Twist rotations.
/castsequence reset=8/combat Windfury Totem, Flame Shock(Rank 7), Grace of Air Totem, Stormstrike, Earth Shock(Rank 8)
What you will see happening is you'll go through the sequence and when you get to Earth Shock, you have to wait from the Flame Shock cooldown, then you Earth Shock and as you do that WF buff is about to fade and you refresh WF.
Second time you go through the sequence, you then have to wait for Flame Shock to come back up and by that time the WF totem will refresh allowing a fresh 9 seconds and then you go into Grace of Air.
It works out perfectly. Only difference is you lose 4 seconds of non Grace of Air-ness heh.
Losing that much uptime on goa is nowhere near worth it.
Son, to me a robot's just a garbage can with sparks comin' out it.
1. PvE
I won't give you numbers or links to data but i had an increase in my dps in 25man raids since the moment i replaced one mongoose enchant with an executioner enchant. My raid rogues need to be focused 100% to be over my total dps and boss dps and sometimes they dont make it. Critical chance is a very strange thing. 2xMongooses will help a lot an entry raid enhancement shaman, boosting his crit chance from say 25% to even 35% occasionaly. However, at higher gear, an increase in critical strike chance from 35% to 45% wont give extremely different dps. I believe that if you are about 30% crit chance unbuffed you can dump one mongoose and get executioner enchant. Mongoose is overrated and in many raids my avg critical chance wasn;t much higher than my passive critical chance.
2. PvP
We all have seen how Enhancement shaman performs in Arenas. Either he kills fast or crowd control kills him, especialy in 5v5 teams. I believe that 2x mongooses versus mongoose+Executioner won't have a difference in critical strikes in PvP situations, as the total time of a fight is extremely low, not to mention the "diminishing returns" of critical strike chance due to resilience. On the other hand executioner will give you a chance to do more burst damage on a target, catching enemy healers off guard, especialy with some nice windfury hits.
About Enhancement shaman performance in raid
Some additions.
Things that you can't see easily about an enhancement shaman in raids.
1. How often he drops special totems due to special situations like poison, fear, fire/frost damage, direct spell damage.
2. If he re-put his totems in relatively new locations fast enough so that his group won't have a chance to lose any totem buff due to long range.
Things you can see
1. How many times he interrupted enemy spellcasting.
2. If he used Bloodlust wisely considering his group and not his selfish dps thirst. Was the whole group ready to nuke? Was there enough time to fit Bloodlust in between special phases in bosses where you can;t focus on dps? etc.
3. Are his enhancement totems (Strength, Grace of Air, Windfury totem) improved with the appropriate enhancement talents?
1. PvE
I won't give you numbers or links to data but i had an increase in my dps in 25man raids since the moment i replaced one mongoose enchant with an executioner enchant. My raid rogues need to be focused 100% to be over my total dps and boss dps and sometimes they dont make it. Critical chance is a very strange thing. 2xMongooses will help a lot an entry raid enhancement shaman, boosting his crit chance from say 25% to even 35% occasionaly. However, at higher gear, an increase in critical strike chance from 35% to 45% wont give extremely different dps. I believe that if you are about 30% crit chance unbuffed you can dump one mongoose and get executioner enchant. Mongoose is overrated and in many raids my avg critical chance wasn;t much higher than my passive critical chance.
I would love to see some of the parses where you're giving your rogues a run for their money.
Right now our sword rogues are hitting 1600-1700 dps, and even in max gear my simulations don't get that high. Just the very idea that you could be on par makes me shiver.
Exactly what this thread needs -- a nice dose of speculation.
Critical chance is a very strange thing.
Not really. It's a percentage increase to all your physical damage, which as a bonus increases proc uptime.
at higher gear, an increase in critical strike chance from 35% to 45% wont give extremely different dps.
Actually, it'll give the exact same dps increase as going from 25%-35%.
You do 800 dps at 25%. Going to 35% will add 64 dps (800 * 1.35 /1.25 = 864). Going to 45% adds a further 64 dps (864 * 1.45 / 1.35 = 928).
Obviously, 64 DPS is a smaller PERCENTAGE increase, going from 25 to 35 and 35 to 45, but it's the same AMOUNT of increase. Which may be why:
in many raids my avg critical chance wasn;t much higher than my passive critical chance.
Actually, on second glance that makes no sense at all.
You are on the right track about the possible benefits for PvP, especially in arena. But let's get some numbers, huh? How much resilience are people stacking these days? How much crit are we losing? And how much armor are people stacking (Armor Penetration has more value at low armor than high armor)?
Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/06/07 at 10:41 AM.
[about what going from 35% to 45% crit chance does]
Not really. It's a percentage increase to all your physical damage, which as a bonus increases proc uptime.
Actually, it'll give the exact same dps increase as going from 25%-35%.
This is wrong. The "bonus" you refer to is very significant and cannot be ignored. Flurry, UR and other crit procs have a dramatic affect on your DPS (and in UR's case, your whole group's). For a reductio ad absurdum proof, going from 0% to 10% not only gives you the straight 10% crit damage boost, but it also means that you will almost always be gaining flurry (straight 30% dps increase, modulo bizarre WF issues) and very often will be gaining UR (10% for you and your party). Obviously, that's going to be the best thing you could possibly do. On the other hand, going from 90% to 100% will almost never increase your flurry or UR uptime, and so your added benefit will be barely more than the straight 10%.
Put another way, when your crit chance is very low (5-10%) the EP of Agi/Crit is going to be WAY HIGHER than it is once you're in epic gear.
For realistic crit chance ranges for raiders, it's not a linear reduction, but the more crit you have, the less *actual* dps more crit will get you, not just the less *percentage*.
Has anyone plotted this dps benefit change from crit chance 0-100% (and therefore, the change in EP)? This is related to my earlier question about how Agi/Crit was valued.
Has anyone plotted this dps benefit change from crit chance 0-100% (and therefore, the change in EP)? This is related to my earlier question about how Agi/Crit was valued.
I remember doing it on my warrior (Melee class with both Flurry & WF factored in as I was an orc back then) pre-tbc & found out I went into diminshing returns as I went past the 33%~36% range.
Will try to find the excel sheet but it might be lost in a format or two .
1. PvE
I won't give you numbers or links to data but ...
2. PvP
We all have seen how Enhancement shaman performs in Arenas. Either he kills fast or crowd control kills him, especialy in 5v5 teams. I believe that 2x mongooses versus mongoose+Executioner won't have a difference in critical strikes in PvP situations, as the total time of a fight is extremely low, not to mention the "diminishing returns" of critical strike chance due to resilience. On the other hand executioner will give you a chance to do more burst damage on a target, catching enemy healers off guard, especialy with some nice windfury hits.
1. This is a theorycrafting forum. Numbers and links are pretty much required if you're trying to make a new assertion about dps. If you dont have numbers to back up what you're saying, why should any of us believe it? Thats like saying "The more you hit, the more damage you can do" which made sense at the time, but turned out to be false and a factor that would severely limit a shaman's damage by going for hit rating.
2. Versus any group with a healer, if you have seen how enhancement performs in arena, you would know that we migrate from a burst dps class to a long term steady burn. Because of resil, crit chance is extremely overrated in an arena setting, whereas reducing a clothie's armor to next to nothing is extremely valuable. When your crit rate is reduced to about 14% and the damage from that 14% is reduced by 20%, focusing on improving my non-crit attacks has worked out better for me personally. If we look at a drop in critical strike effectiveness due to resil, it would undeniably make up the very small difference in the EP values for both enchants.
Sorry about the PVP tangent, but I felt as it had been brought up, it should be corrected.
For realistic crit chance ranges for raiders, it's not a linear reduction, but the more crit you have, the less *actual* dps more crit will get you, not just the less *percentage*.
I thought I could ignore it in the interest of showing crit rating was pretty useful at any crite percentage, but I ran a quick test -- twelve runs of yo's sim testing only autoattack, windfury & ss(default values except: 24% hit to remove misses from the test, 0% haste rating, no LotP, no RED, no shocks or procs), altering only crit in 5% intervals from 0-60%:
And yeah -- as you can see, the DPS added by 5% additional crit DOES decrease as you get more and more of it. But beyond 25% crit, which most of us have, the falloff isn't particularly significant (around 2 dps per 5% crit added). Since that's the range I was looking into with my previous post, well, I didn't screw up THAT badly.
I'm not sure how the current Flurry bug affects all this (would love to have that modeled).
Thats like saying "The more you hit, the more damage you can do" which made sense at the time, but turned out to be false
*sigh*, no it didn't. More hits does mean more damage. What is false is the premise that because more hits means more damage, hit rating is very important. It turns out that,working within a given itemization budget, fewer, bigger hits are worth MORE damage than more, smaller hits. While the opposite may be true for rogues and warriors, with shamans it's all about quality, not quantity.
I estimated Windfury high and Stormstrike at contributing a criminally low value, but you get the idea of where this is going. Once you go past 30%-35% crit your contribution from increased Flurry uptime drops off considerably.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
I estimated Windfury high and Stormstrike at contributing a criminally low value, but you get the idea of where this is going. Once you go past 30%-35% crit your contribution from increased Flurry uptime drops off considerably.
Yeah I would say you need to turn up WF/Stormstrike alot, at 35% crit (excluding mongoose procs) I have about 95% flurry uptime in raids according to WWS logs. So the 60 something % on that graph is a way off.
Remember that you gonna have Mongoose procs in game that will seriously skew the graph for you.
& in raids you gonna have mongoose procs unless you gonna go with non enchanted weapons to test it out
EDIT: Just noticed that the OP doesn't have the EP values for Tier 6 geared shamans so did them :
Considered full raid buffs with kings & with a flask.
AP = 1
Str = 2
Agi = 1.52
Crit Rating = 1.72
Hit Rating = 1.64 <== Starting to catch up with crit in EP ?
Haste Rating = 1.74 <== Becomes more important then Crit ?
Armor Penetration = 0.28
sometimes it hits cc'ed mobs, sometimes it didn't. i've seen Searing hittin shacks and i've seen Searing ignoring sheeps. don't know, is kind of 'blizzard mechanics' "its not a bug, its a feature"
@All-in-One Macro:
#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=12/target/combat Stormstrike, Earthshock, Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, Flameshock
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();
I've been dropping it right next to sheeped mobs in BT to test it, with no other valid target around and it ignores the sheep and only goes for it when broken.
Yeah I would say you need to turn up WF/Stormstrike alot, at 35% crit (excluding mongoose procs) I have about 95% flurry uptime in raids according to WWS logs. So the 60 something % on that graph is a way off.
Doing math is hard.
Windfury + Stormstrike = (1-((1-0.01*35)^4.4))*100 = 84.97
Yeah, way off.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
12/05/07, 1:56 PM
.
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