Yo!, are you using the same PPM for Executioner as for Mongoose?

I did a lot of short run sims this morning trying to figure out if I wanted Mongoose/Executioner or double Executioner with my new weapon setup (Syphon/Tide) and was showing Executioner/Mongoose as about equal with Mongoose/Mongoose, but Executioner/Executioner was a 10-20 DPS drop.

Well, I dont say this to be argumentative so please dont take it that way. Considering i do the comparison vrs myself, its easier to compare, at the same time, because I am the raid leader, these past 3 weeks ive made sure that i had nothing else to do but DPS (not choice really in gruul) during those fights. Also, keeping in mind that our roster is static, farmed content (meaning people are up always putting down the same debuffs), and tracking my own meters for self performance...these 2 fights are actually good indicators for DPS. They may vary within each fight, which i expect, but not on back to back performances when i use different gear.

Your response again, somewhat illustrates the problem that im talking about. Yo's simulator is awesome, but assumes a certain controlled environment that is very difficult to achieve. No one works like a computer so peoples ability to adjust, overall gameplay (meaning how they usually play in general) and reaction times are going to come into play. This is why i dont compare myself to other enh shammans when im trying to determine my own outcomes, instead I do it agasint myself since i will have a higher consistancy between fights.

Gruul is simply a melee fight for me, nothing else to do. Mag past the channelers is the same thing, with no cube assignements you just sit there and DPS - (needless to say i reset my own meters when fighting gruul.

It would be different if i was discussing dmg totals, but instead its dps which if you can sustain for more than 2 minutes and not running out of resources, its likely you can maintain that for quite a while.

Again, sorry if this comes off as being argumentative, i just am of the opinion that you cant draw accurate parallels between a simulator and actual practice. (will never deny is a damn useful tool though)


I will admit though - it is possible that there is a relation to how much atk/crit total you need to have to overlap certain potential DPS drawbacks. Not talking directly like 50atk vrs x amount of hit, but more so.. if you have 1500 atk (for instance) that going +-25 hit doesnt make a huge difference, where as doing the same with say 1100 atk will. I hope that makes sense.

Gruul is a terrible test fight. Even if all you do is dps, with all that running, avoiding cave ins, trying to stay below the second tank, you're never going to be doing your best.

You want to test your DPS, go to the bear boss in ZA, go to Kara and beat on Attumen. High armor, high health, pretty much tank & spank. A big sample set smooths out strings of luck.

By the by, I'm down to 63 hit rating, 28% crit, 1464 AP. JUST NOW is hit rating approaching the value of crit rating on Yo's (1.58 vs 1.64). I miss all the time and my rogues laugh at me. The ones who out damage me, anyway.

Yeah the T5 > T6 lvl gear transition is when your hit gets hammered by loot thats clearly itemised for hunters, it's not really until the very end of T6 that you can get the best loot (aka leather *sigh*) that has alot of +hit on it.

Soon as Grips of Damnation finally drop I'll get them + the swiftstrike shoulders to replace my 2 pieces of T6, that'll put me around 150 hit too, which imo I would never go below.

[e] Grr just realised the shoulders are BoP LWer.. thought they were same as the bracers .. Oh well that screws that plan guess I'll stick with the T6!

Malan: From what Yo! posted earlier I believe he said the Executioner was the same procrate as Mongoose.

From my own experiance with +hit, I run around 90HR+talents, its nice to have, but only if you dont sacrifice anything else to get it. You will almost ALWAYS see better returns when adding AP/Crit/Armor pen to your gear. From the melee group that my guild runs, we are ussually the top5 for damage and I fall in there under the rogues right with the furywar and retpally and I miss a good percent of the time. If the gear would allow me to get more +hit I have no doubt that enh shaman would own on damage.

Another good baseline for DPS/Damage is if your guild is Morogrim if your guiild is still running SSC. While the water tombing can get annoying at times, it is a pretty static tank and spank type of fight that can allow for gear comparissons week-to-week if you are keeping logs of your damage done.

I'm gearing up into T6 items, and i'm following a completely different route than you :P

Im at 55 hit right now and dont really plan to get it a lot higher, and according to all the simulations and theorycrafting thats a GOOD thing. I have 1700 AP and 31.8% crit currently. I do plan to pick up 2~ items with more hit on them but I dont anticipate going much higher than 90-100hit (till sunwell and then its all up in the air).

You should take another look at the gear available, with an optimum set you should have about 160 hit rating(illidan hat, supremus neck, teron cape, arch bp, rage/teron bracers, vengeful weapons, illidan ring, and council trinket). The only things that you can remotely argue are the supremus neck due to the lack of stamina and council trinket due to low armor pen values(I don't want you to tell me why you think different items are better in different slots).

Actually, a quick run on the simulator shows that the value of hit rating DECREASES relative to other stats as your attack power decreases. It isn't by much.

Look, just know your stat weights. I can't stress this enough. Knowing how much each stat is worth compared to others allows you to quickly evaluate gear, find out which upgrades offer the biggest bang for the DKP and not waste your time grinding useless stuff.

Being an Enhancer is easy. If a piece is an upgrade, it's an upgrade. There's no magic levels to maintain. No need to shift gems around. Just know your stat levels and you're good to go.

chardev.org - World of Warcraft Character Planer .beta

Here you get 1900+ AP and 207HR, you may find better i think, but those are pretty awesome stats.

PS : and yeah, that's a lot of leather stuff :|

Why are you cluttering this thread with that garbage? Big grats, you can put items on a character sheet. You have no haste, eckspertise, armor penetration, terrible crit, and you're sub'd in elemental(wtf@call of thunder?).

Well, you can't NOT get 100+ hit rating if you are getting the best shaman gear available...

I'm at (with kings) 1866 AP/34.18% crit/19.91% hit/301 AI, with procs active I'm riding 3k+ AP/40% crit in raids... at that point hitting becomes ALOT more valuable to me than an extra 20 or 30 AP that I could have had from other gear choices.

Sorry Mox but you can get a lot of hit rating with the best gear avaible. Just check that profile.

1828 AP, 182 HR, 35 ExR, 32.6% CR, 252 ArP and 2.35% Haste

Low Hit Assumption is true for starting karazhan up to ~ mid T6 content, until you can get your hands on the "rogue" gear. There's hit allmost everywhere.

You could swap [Madness of the Betrayer] for [Berserker's Call], but i don't think there are more real upgrades avaible, crafted shoulders and bracer with haste can only be decent sidegrades.

He said can't not, meaning that with the best gear you will have over 100 hit.

@Skwat: Apologies, but to me it was someone I've never seen linking a ctprofile of a shaman with t6 equiv gear when the discussion was about dropping AP for Hit. I do realize that you had good intentions, however.

to
Add the x's back into latex

A few things about this set;

Most of TBC bosses in this game have major raid-wide damage, and with no CloS/Evasion/Sprint/exploits I am very wary of items with zero stamina on them. Thus I don't plan to pick up boneweave girdle/supremus neck until noone else in the raid needs it.
I also don't see myself getting the S3 Arena Weapons for...well...lets just say a long time...
From the simulations ive run at least right now, berserker's call is > madness of the betrayer (I particularly like it because it can be used simultaneously with Shamanistic Rage).

You are right though, I hadn't really looked at the final hit rating of my optimal set but I was just surprised how low my hit had actually fallen (when I replaced my S2 arena weapons with Syphons, and a few other changes) and overlooked a few things ill be picking up even within the immediate future to pump my hit back up.

You're kidding, that one escape character was the only problem?

That's because I haven't fixed it yet.

For all of my equations that was the only fix.

Here is your last change:

\text{Windfury} = \left(\begin{array}{l l}\text{WF Proc Rate} & \text{Wpn Speed} > 3 \\\text{WF Proc Rate} \times \text{Wpn Speed}/3 & \text{Wpn Speed} < 3\end{array}\right)



I guess it parses out carriage returns as /br(reaks). Also your right parenthesis was off, just copy and paste that line.
It gets hectic without white space now, some of my latex codes for the calculus section on armor returns are 3 solid lines of characters. Better here than a PM though - perhaps it'll help another person with latex in their posts.

Hello @ all,


newly signed in, a few minutes ago. Thank you for the information in this thread. Nice work! Frees me from some misunderstandings.

I have a question that bothered me for a while since my raidleader keeps critizing me for missing much too often against the bosses at Karazhan. In his opinion. Needless to say I see it otherwise. ;-)

As far, as I can tell my Recount addon says my miss numbers are reading under 10 % against lvl 70-71 normal mobs when in melee. I'm partially PvP (Veteran-Non-Set-Epics), Arena and T4 equipped and do know, that a DWing Enhancer has a base chance of 24 % of missing.

Further, I can provide some Webstats of our tries against the 'Leerhäscher' at The Eye.
at url: Courn - WWS

So my question in this matter is, does my leader read and interprete his numbers correct?
Is there a magical miss-percentage for any Enhancer out there to keep his misses below?

Some stats unbuffed: AP 1258, hit rating 86, Crit 27,21%

If you need additional information, let me know.

Thanks in advance for your advice!

I have the Cataclysm Helm, and I recently picked up Coif of the Jungle Stalker, which all AEP weights say is about 8AEP better (assuming you're valuing hit at 1.4). But when I put it into simulators, no matter what buffs I add or remove, the Cataclysm Helm comes out ahead. Now, I noticed I don't have a set value for the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond, so my question is...

According to Rogues I've spoken to, their AEP for the Relentless Earthstorm is 42. And I know that it varies by crit rate, but with an approximation of 30% crit, what would the AEP from this metagem be? I was thinking of taking their AEP and subtracting the 12 AP they get out of the AGI on it and valuing it at 30, but I wasn't sure if anyone had posted a more accurate way to value it that I had missed. Thanks for reading and for the thread as a whole!

Scan back a few pages and you'll see the discussion I had about this as well. You need almost a 60-80 EP upgrade before the meta gem can be phased out. Basically if you already have a meta gem helm, there's no way to replace it with a non meta gem helm.

Quigon, thanks mate!

Kazie,

Sims can't be made for each fight. Reacting, moving, having to chain heal yourself on Lootreaver because your healer took balls to the face all factor into how much damage you'll be doing. The reason simulators all assume you can stand there and dps your heart out is because while you're standing there with no distractions, your dps should be consistent. When the next thing happens and you have to move, you get into position again and continue dpsing.

The point is to show that while you're able to dps, this piece of gear is better. Every fight regardless of how interrupted and disjointed is going to be about those few moments where you can dps consistently added up over the course of the fight.

hit rating is given a stat weight, not a 100 hit rating cap. Hit rating is still valuable until you hit the actual hit cap, but the net gain versus the same itemization points spent in Strength just wouldnt favor the hit rating.

What you're basically saying is "I choose to believe that I do higher dps with my hit rating despite evidence that suggests otherwise."

I'm not sure where your consistency stuff is coming from. Higher dps while you're on the boss is going to equal higher dps total.