For Yo's! simulator is it recommended to just add Judgement of the XXX (3%crit), Imp hunters Mark, Expose weakness improved + trinketed battleshout to your base character stats?
Then for bloodfrenzy / Imp Sanct aura / ferocious insp just multiply the final dps by 1.03 or 1.035ish(blood frenzy)?
Also is there any suggested way to model bloodlust? 33% haste x 45s/fight duration?
I would suggest adding trinketed Battleshout and Judgement of the XXX manually if these are consistently there for you. I would not add Expose Weakness (inconsistent in uptime). I would add Imp Hunter's Mark if you consistently have it.
For the others you can indeed multiply at the end, but that's only necessary if you want an exact DPS number. (If you do, make sure you get the mob's armor after Sunder/FF/CoR correct.)
There is no good way to model Bloodlust. I would not do what you describe -- you might devalue haste rating.
Originally Posted by Paradox
I see, where is 10k advised by the way? I always just did 1k or 2k hours like it says for working out aep values on the sim itself.
Something about the stonebreakers totem too.. you say it is modeled on shocking out of the cooldown (every 10 seconds), but this conflicts with "shocks per 2 minutes", and well, personally I shock everytime it's up, perhaps 2 versions of it would be nice, one for shocking everytime the shock CD is up, the other for every 10 seconds when the stonebreaker is up?
10k is just the standard we use in this thread. Yo! suggested a while back in it using 10k hours anytime you calculate EPs. 1k is the minimum for somewhat reliable results but will still vary from run to run. 10k is stable from run to run.
Also, i've noticed Enhancer gives AEP and AEP including BoK, should I put my stats in the sim using Kings (pretty much guaranteed each raid) or leave it out and let Enhancer just work it out when doing AEP, will it affect my values that come out of the sim?
You need to add the impact of BoK to your AP and Crit. Since Yo's sim doesn't have fields for STR and AGI, you must add 0.2*STR to AP and AGI/250 to crit %.
60 dps, 2.5 spd (A)
62 dps, 2.3 spd (B)
85 dps, 1.8 spd (C)
Initially i had been using B/A WF/WF, but when i got C i wasnt quite sure what to do with it. For now its C/A WF/WF, but it seems to do almost identical damage as A/C WF/FT and A/B WF/WF. I've spent a few hours in BG's, dueling, and even grinding on mobs trying to determine which is the better combination. The actual stats on the weapons are moot, as they are almost identical (I would link to what they are, but i'm not at home right now.)
I know WF is supposed to out DPS FT in almost all situations, but even when the weapon is that fast? I had hoped that the large increase in the actual weapon DPS would make up for it, but that doesnt seem to be the case.
WF scales a lot better. All tests done by people who knows their shit in this thread points to WF being the only buff to use on two slow weapons. Epic daggers with FT cannot compete. You can always browse the odd 1-200 pages on this topic or run the tests in Yo!'s sim linked in the OP.
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ok, I have a lame dull flameworthy question that I'd love a quick and dirty guesstimate answer for:
swords rogue
daggers rogue
mm hunter
bm hunter
Grace of Air or Windfury? (assuming all else is equal)
a) GoA
b) WF
c) who cares?
In TK the other night we discussed this in /party for ages until the MM hunter stated that if I didn't stfu about totems he'd ask to be moved to another party
If you want to please everyone and be the most efficient, twist both GoA and WF.
If you don't want to twist, just pick one totem and stick to it.
The effect of GoA on your hunters depends a lot on the fight, their playstyle, and so on.
You are the only one that has possibly access to the numbers that will help you to determine whether GoA for your entire party will be more DPS than WF for your rogues.
I play a lot (outside of raids) with my guild's hunters and rogues, and I know that, if I took my shaman for a raid, and had a group like the one you listed, I'd use GoA if, for some reason, I didn't feel like twisting.
So wait it's you and those four classes in the group? Definitely GoA. Even if one of the rogues was a warrior, I'd probably still drop GoA(assuming I'm not twisting for some reason).
I know WF is supposed to out DPS FT in almost all situations, but even when the weapon is that fast? I had hoped that the large increase in the actual weapon DPS would make up for it, but that doesnt seem to be the case.
Windfury always outperforms Flametongue on your main hand weapon and you should never have a dagger there. Windfury almost always outperforms Flametongue on your off hand weapon (you'd need huge amounts of AP and a faster-than-1.8s dagger to change that).
I know it says this in the first post you ignored, but weapon speed matters far more than any other factor on a weapon -- a 2.6s weapon in the 60s can, as you've seen, outperform an 80 dps dagger. Don't pick up the dagger and think you can make it work -- let it get sharded.
Weapon choice is one of the most important factors of shaman gearing. You NEED 2.6s or slower weapons, even a 2.4 is gimpy and not worth your time. At your gear level, you want to aim for easy upgrades like Drakefist Hammer, Harvester of Souls, Demonblood Eviscerator, Reflex Blades or the easiest upgrade of all, the S1 one-handers. For ~36 hours of PvP (easily doable by the end of the year) you can have a pair of 91.2 dps 2.6s axes or hammers. Why waste your time testing daggers from Karazhan?
Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/20/07 at 11:16 AM.
Reason: The Guile of Khoraazi still sucks.
I've read the OP many times through, i just wasnt sure if it still applied when there was that much of a difference in DPS.
As for taking the dagger, guild bank has more shards than it can handle, and the only reason i took it is because everyone else in the raid already had one. No really, even the mage =\ (Same thing with the druid staff from illhoof.) I was just hoping for a really easy upgrade as i took the third healers spot while my already-geared guildmates destroyed karazhan for badges.
Either way, ty. =) I'll still be coming back to these forums, but i'll read a little more before i post something next time.
No that's exactly what the OP says - that FT on a much higher DPS weapon will now outperform WF on a slow weapon with inferior DPS. A 20 DPS upgrade on that dagger with FT will do pretty good. However, a 100 DPS 2.6 and 100 DPS 1.8 will perform best with WF on the 2.6 over FT on the 1.8. If you have lower end wpns an epic dagger upgrade with FT can be a good upgrade, you just have to recognize when to replace it again.
I've spent a few hours in BG's, dueling, and even grinding on mobs trying to determine which is the better combination.
Any Boss NPC is going to have a 10% higher resist (or more) rate than anything you just listed here, which makes any "sort of close" comparison go to "Windfury is better".
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
I would suggest adding trinketed Battleshout and Judgement of the XXX manually if these are consistently there for you. I would not add Expose Weakness (inconsistent in uptime). I would add Imp Hunter's Mark if you consistently have it.
For the others you can indeed multiply at the end, but that's only necessary if you want an exact DPS number. (If you do, make sure you get the mob's armor after Sunder/FF/CoR correct.)
There is no good way to model Bloodlust. I would not do what you describe -- you might devalue haste rating.
Yeah I was just wanting to get a bit more accuracy because our last Teron I was over 1700dps while Yo's! sim put me around 1500.
I have been treating Int and Stam as secondary stats for the last month, with the result that I'm picking up more ZA and badge leather gear to replace my mail. (I'm keeping the mail in case Bliz fixes itemization later in some way.) But I've realized that Int does have a quantifiable impact on DPS: It increases spell crit %age.
Therefore, it's easy to see what Int EP should be... But since I don't have the Int-> crit or crit multiplier numbers handy I'll leave it to someone who does.
I'm not sure this will change anything significantly since IIRC shock dps is around 10% of your overall dps in most fights, give or take, but it might make it clearer that a certain mail item was actually not worth "upgrading" to a comparable leather item, for example.
A little fast math, probably off by a little but will give you a picture. 80 int = 1% spell crit.
1% spellcrit ~0.5% more shockdamage.(probably less due to flame shock gaining so little)
0.5% more damage from shocks is roughly 0.05% more overall damage.
So you need 20% spellcrit to gain 1% damage. 20% spellcrit = 80*20 = 1600 intellect.
20 melee crit rating will also roughly increase damage by 1%.
If we have 1 Crit rating at 2 aep 1 intellect would be 0.025 (2/80) aep.
Even if my numbers probably is off you can see that intellects value is extremely low and you need 40 intellect to get the same increase in damage as 1 ap.
We get 0.0125% spell crit/1 intellect. (I derived this by comparing the difference in spell crit and intellect between my PvP and PvE sets.) Our spells crit for 150% and not 200%, and the DoT portion of Flame Shock does not crit. With self buffs you've got about 500 +damage/heal, and a base value of 661-696 for Earth Shock which has a 43% coefficient and 377 for the direct damage of Flame Shock with a 15% coefficient for the direct damage. Let's suppose raid buffs take you up to 650 damage/heal. I am too lazy to consider Misery and Scorch so somebody else can do that if they want. If they do, they had better also factor in resists (spells should be two-roll, so a crit spell can be resisted. At least shocks are binary resist so you don't have to worry about partials...)
1% crit would give you an extra 0.01*0.5*((661+696)/2+650*0.43)/12 seconds = 0.005*(678.5+279.5)/12 = 0.399 DPS on Earth Shock and 0.01*0.5*(377+650*.15)/12 seconds = 0.005*(377+97.5)/12 = 0.198 DPS on Flame Shock. Let's call that 0.6 DPS in all for 1% crit. 0.0125% crit/Int*0.6 DPS/1% crit = 0.0075 DPS/Int. If we say 4 AP = 1 DPS then Int gets an EP of 0.03. An item with 40 int gets an extra 1.2 EP.
In other words, we don't really need to take Int into consideration. (It's nice to see that the previous poster, using a different methodology, comes up with a similar solution.)
that someone came up with the same solution is simply due to the fact that the value is so small ist does not make any difference. 0.025 / 0.030 is a 20% diversion. ^^ I mean a 20% difference in anything like maybe crit or so would result in anything between 1.6 and 2.4 for crit rating. Thats the sole reason 8)
Also, i've noticed Enhancer gives AEP and AEP including BoK, should I put my stats in the sim using Kings (pretty much guaranteed each raid) or leave it out and let Enhancer just work it out when doing AEP, will it affect my values that come out of the sim?
If you are expecting BoK you should run the sim with BoK to get proper numbers.
Yo! has kindly made the values in the import string un-BoKed again for me to use in Enhancer so I can display both with and without BoK.
Enhancer -Ace2- (Totem Timers, configurable AEP, Enhancement Itemization Points, GemPicker and more) RaidSpy -Ace2- (Prints out the checks done by raid officers in chatframe)
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Do we have a crit cap?
Crit value, when AP became more useful over crit.
Right now i'm thinking what to do - keep +10 CR gems or replace them with 5St+5CR gems.
My unbuffed stats are: 1664 ap, 31.69% crit unbuffed, 116 hit rating.
Do we have a crit cap?
Crit value, when AP became more useful over crit.
Right now i'm thinking what to do - keep +10 CR gems or replace them with 5St+5CR gems.
My unbuffed stats are: 1664 ap, 31.69% crit unbuffed, 116 hit rating.
We do have a crit cap, but it's so high you'll be very unlikely to reach it, even if you jammed your gear full with crit gems. Iirc the glance rate is 25%, so with capped hit and expertise the crit cap is at 75% for white attacks, and 100% for yellow attacks. With your hit rating that should be roughly 58% for white attacks and 95% for yellow attacks.
Anyway, if you have no access to 10 str gems, you should be gemming your gear with 5str and 5 crit no matter what. You should be getting superior EP from strength.
Crit cap for me - when 100% attacks are flurried. Maybe i'm wrong.
Question is about yellow sockets, for example my new T6 shoulders have only yellow sockets, so 10str gems are not good due to socket bonus.
You can forget about getting 100% of your attacks flurried, the only real way of that happening is having a 100% crit rate. And yes, replace those 10 crit with 5 str and 5 crit, they're superior. Your gem choices for sockets should always be (if you want socket bonuses that is) Red: 10 str, Yellow: 5 str 5crit, Blue: 5 str 7 sta. The only exception to my knowledge being the jewelcrafting only 12 crit gem, which comes out superior to 10 strength.
What do you guys think about talon of the phoenix?its a nice weapon and i thought about ''breaking the rules'',so i use it with rising tide for OH.I am satisfied by my DPS its over 1k in most of the boss fights.i use exe/mongoose for that combo,and i would like to know if mongoose x2 is a better enchant for this weapon combo.Thanks in advance.
I have been searching through this thread for a while and I still haven't really seen it mentioned yet. Is there a difference when starting out in a entry lvl raid enviroment, when selecting between the gladiator's axe/mace for MH compared to the glad's MH first wep? Since the stats (EP) are the same, and the only true difference is dmg output/gap on the high and low ends of the wep. Is it just a personal choice of choosing which one I like better or does it make a huge difference in the long run?
12/20/07, 2:32 AM
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