Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 234

Yo! · 12/26/07, 6:44 PM

Originally Posted by Rob

Because Yo's sim does not have STR and AGI inputs it can't know how much your AP and critical strike chance will increase with BoK. If you wish to account for BoK, check the BoK box and add STR*0.2 to AP and AGI/250 to Crit %.

I believe (hope?) Yo's sim will already account for the extra 10% increase in STR and AGI given by SoE/GoA with the BoK box checked. If it does, it probably also accounts the extra increase for MotW, and for buffs such as Roasted Clefthoof, Elixir of Major Agility, etc. But since you mention MotW specifically, if you want to get the contribution of Kings on MotW you may also need to add 4 AP and 0.01% crit. This should not be enough to significantly affect the output and I don't bother with this step.

Yes, all buffs to str and agi are affected if king is checked. 30% ap to +spell damage is working

Sebudai · 12/26/07, 8:57 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

Considering how important they are to stat weights, I'd like to know which buffs Seb receives. I assume BoK / BoM / MotW / Relentless / Haste Pots / SoE / Battle Shout , but is he twisting (and thus including GoA)? Getting LotP?

Buff configuration the best part about EP weights from Yo's sim -- my guild typically runs with only two paladins and I'm often grouped with a feral, which decreases the relative weight of strength and agi/crit by a worthwhile amount.

Blessing of Kings
Blessing of Might
Mark of the Wild
Leader of the Pack
Flask of Relentless Assault
Haste Potion
Drums of Battle
Strength of Earth
Grace of Air
Battle Shout (plus the bonus from Solarian's Sapphire)
Roasted Clefthoof

-Edit-
Oh, I also noticed that Agility is listed at 1.8 EP in the first post. Isn't that a bit high based on the numbers I listed?

rava · 12/26/07, 9:13 PM

Originally Posted by Sebudai

Oh, I also noticed that Agility is listed at 1.8 EP in the first post. Isn't that a bit high based on the numbers I listed?

I don't think so. ~25agi per crit and ~22 crit rating per crit comes out to a little over a 10% difference, around 11% difference between the crit and agi EP values. What has me confused is agi being weighted higher without kings when it should at best be on par with crit rating with kings.

Wundorn · 12/26/07, 9:40 PM

This is in the OP:

Attack Power = 1 EP
Strength = 2 EP (2.2 EP with Blessing of Kings)
Agility = 1.8 EP (2 EP with Blessing of Kings)
Crit Rating = 1.74 EP

How can Agi without kings be worth more than Crit?

Malan · 12/26/07, 11:31 PM

Oops thats because I copied and pasted that portion and forgot to change that value. Correcting it now.

It should be 1.69 from the average of Sebudai's data, and 1.85 if you add 10% to that for kings.

frozndevl · 12/27/07, 1:26 AM

I ran into a lovely situation today. I just attuned for Kara and have been trying to find a group. Was talking to a raid leader today and when he asked my stats, he was getting on my case about not knowing enough about enh because I [b]only[b] have 61 hit rating. I pointed him to this post and he responded with "lol i read it noob". He said that there was a 7% hit cap that I needed to hit from gear. Since I still have yet to raid, I wanted to confirm that 1) there is no 7% cap I need to hit and 2) I was probably dealing with someone that doesn't really grasp the hit tables or how hit works for a shaman.

If I am wrong, I want to remedy that problem. However from what I have read, and through use of Yo!'s simulator, I have been changing gear as it comes without regard for the specific values on the gear as long as the sims show an improvement.

Shinanigans · 12/27/07, 2:23 AM

Originally Posted by frozndevl

I ran into a lovely situation today. I just attuned for Kara and have been trying to find a group. Was talking to a raid leader today and when he asked my stats, he was getting on my case about not knowing enough about enh because I [b]only[b] have 61 hit rating. I pointed him to this post and he responded with "lol i read it noob". He said that there was a 7% hit cap that I needed to hit from gear. Since I still have yet to raid, I wanted to confirm that 1) there is no 7% cap I need to hit and 2) I was probably dealing with someone that doesn't really grasp the hit tables or how hit works for a shaman.

If I am wrong, I want to remedy that problem. However from what I have read, and through use of Yo!'s simulator, I have been changing gear as it comes without regard for the specific values on the gear as long as the sims show an improvement.

Evening bud and Happy Holidays.

There seems to be alot of people in the WoW community that STILL do not know what enhancement spec'd shamans do and the stats that they need to achieve to be TRULY effective.

I can say with ABSOLUTE certainty, that you want to stay within the Hit Rating range of 60-80. While there is NO clear cut numbers on Hit Rating for enhancement Shamans (every place you check for theorycrafting has different numbers), I have found this range to be very suitable for the spec. I myself am a Draenei Shaman (Yes, I know that I have a +1% hit racial) and I was within that range for raiding (up to SSC/TK). Now, with the way gear is structured, hit rating is inevitable. I am now sitting at 124 hit rating and know that I do not honestly need that much.

So far as your raid leader is concerned, tell him to mind his own business and pay attention to his OWN class and theorycrafting. So many raid leaders over-step their bounds by thinking they know everything there is to know about this game, when the fact of the matter is, they have no idea what they are even doing with their own class.

My statement to him next time, if I were you, would be "I have read a lot of material on my class and the theorycrafting that encompasses it and my gear/gem/enchant choices are a direct reflection of that material."

That is it. Do not say anything else to him because you will only be shooting yourself in the foot.

Hope this helps bud and best of luck to you.

Ikuturso · 12/27/07, 3:26 AM

Originally Posted by Shinanigans

I myself am a Draenei Shaman (Yes, I know that I have a +1% hit racial) and I was within that range for raiding (up to SSC/TK).

The racial is +1% spell hit for Shamans.

Sebudai · 12/27/07, 3:32 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

Oops thats because I copied and pasted that portion and forgot to change that value. Correcting it now.

It should be 1.69 from the average of Sebudai's data, and 1.85 if you add 10% to that for kings.

Doesn't Yo's simulator account for BoK in the EP value if I have that checked? I thought that was the whole point of checking it.

Rob · 12/27/07, 5:00 AM

Originally Posted by Sebudai

Doesn't Yo's simulator account for BoK in the EP value if I have that checked? I thought that was the whole point of checking it.

Yes. It is 1.69 with Kings, and 1.54 without. (@Malan - It can't be 1.85 with Kings since that's still more than 1.74 which is the value for Crit Rating.)

Originally Posted by Shinanigans

I can say with ABSOLUTE certainty, that you want to stay within the Hit Rating range of 60-80.

Unfortunately, this advice isn't really correct. Not as bad as the quoted idea that there's a "7% cap from gear" (no idea where that one came from), but it's bad form to say that there's any optimal range (beyond perhaps saying that shamans without a Resto subspec need at least 48 hit rating to cap yellows).

While there is NO clear cut numbers on Hit Rating for enhancement Shamans (every place you check for theorycrafting has different numbers),

This is better.

I would just say "Enhancement shamans don't aim for a hit cap or a specific hit rating and have the luxury of picking the overall best available items, regardless of the exact stats on them."

Shinanigans · 12/27/07, 5:37 AM

I will admit that I contradicted myself above. I was just WAY too tired and should have not posted.

Anyways, Rob is correct in stating that Enhance shamans really should worry about hit rating last. Worry about the gear in terms of Strength, Agility, Critical Rating, and AP. Obviously, INT/Spirit/Stamina are going to come with gear as will hit rating.

Malan · 12/27/07, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by Sebudai

Doesn't Yo's simulator account for BoK in the EP value if I have that checked? I thought that was the whole point of checking it.

Well that depends, did you inflate your stats to account for Kings before running the sim? If you didn't, his sim assumes that the AP and Crit you entered reflects having Kings on already.

Chrysocolla_SWC · 12/27/07, 10:29 AM

Will there be any future addition to Yo's, or any of the other simulators for straight spell damage added? As I see it, it's hard to really compare flametongue in any way without being able to sacrifice strength gems for spell damage gems to test any possible benefit there.

Merple · 12/27/07, 10:44 AM

A general question about rogue leather.

I've been running some calculations on how to go about getting the best EP value for the gear I wear, and most of the time, rogue leather comes out above any mail I can find.

Assuming I can actually _get_ it, is there anything negative about wearing rogue leather over chain? It lacks mp5/int. Will that hurt me much from a DPS standpoint?

Ryley · 12/27/07, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Merple

A general question about rogue leather.

I've been running some calculations on how to go about getting the best EP value for the gear I wear, and most of the time, rogue leather comes out above any mail I can find.

Assuming I can actually _get_ it, is there anything negative about wearing rogue leather over chain? It lacks mp5/int. Will that hurt me much from a DPS standpoint?

Int and Mp5 are worthless for Enh Shaman due to Sham Rage, BoW, JoW, and Focused Shocks. You shouldn't be having any mana problems at all unless it's on Kaz'rogal with unlucky resists. So the only thing mail is good for is the armor, and if you're pulling agro in a raid, mail won't save you anymore then leather.

Atren · 12/27/07, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

Well that depends, did you inflate your stats to account for Kings before running the sim? If you didn't, his sim assumes that the AP and Crit you entered reflects having Kings on already.

Due to fact we enter crit and AP opposed to agility and strength there is no way to know how much would kings affect them so always enter those stats with kings. My guess is BoK there means if outcome (as in EP values) considers BoK or not as it makes Str and Agi better with it compared to without it.

Toots Hepcat · 12/27/07, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Merple

Assuming I can actually _get_ it, is there anything negative about wearing rogue leather over chain? It lacks mp5/int. Will that hurt me much from a DPS standpoint?

I raid with 5000 mana or less and no mp5. I never run out of mana. Between mana pots (you get two a day from dailies, plus one from apexis shards, may as well use 'em), SR and a combined 85 mp5 from ES/MS, you won't need anything else.

There are two reasons mail has so much mana on it. First, we share a lot of gear with hunters, some of whose specs are very mana intensive. Second, Blizzard still thinks we're doing a lot of off-healing, even though no sane raid would put a threat capped melee dps in that role, other than as a last resort to prevent wipes or to top up a group after a nasty AoE.

On the other hand, rogues and feral druids have NO use for mana, and so their gear is just pure stats. Visit MaxDPS.com (not a perfect resource, but good enough for this purpose) and enter your stats. Make sure you click the "include leather" button. Compare the TOP leather items with the TOP mail items and the leather will usually be 10-20% better.

As for "assuming if I get it" -- it shouldn't be hard. There's a lot of low hanging fruit for you that is DKP free -- quest rewards, rep rewards, badge rewards, craftables and some of those easy to grind BG rewards are T5 equivalent. Besides which you should feel no guilt in rolling on any upgrade, even if it's leather. An upgrade to any member is an upgrade to the group, no matter who it goes to.

Sebudai · 12/27/07, 1:22 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Well that depends, did you inflate your stats to account for Kings before running the sim? If you didn't, his sim assumes that the AP and Crit you entered reflects having Kings on already.

Yeah, I enter my stats with the assumption that I have BoK on.

Malan · 12/27/07, 1:29 PM

Ok in that case your EP values were fine, I think the problem was that when you listed your buffs earlier I didn't see BoK in the list.

Oh look it was the first thing in your list though. Lets chalk that one up to 'Malan is dumb' and call it a day.

Ryley · 12/27/07, 1:32 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

*snip*

There are two reasons mail has so much mana on it. First, we share a lot of gear with hunters, some of whose specs are very mana intensive. Second, Blizzard still thinks we're doing a lot of off-healing, even though no sane raid would put a threat capped melee dps in that role, other than as a last resort to prevent wipes or to top up a group after a nasty AoE.

*snip*

Just a minor nitpick here, but I find myself helping top off groups on the AoE gauntlet to RoS or in P2 Illidan when I'm unable to hit the Flames (though this is rare, sup tauren hitbox), so I wouldn't use all leather. A bit of int here and there is very nice.

Malan · 12/27/07, 1:35 PM

Question for someone in the know - does Yo's sim expect the Expertise field to be filled in with the amount of expertise rating that I have or the quantity of Expertise that applies to that hand?

Nemaa · 12/27/07, 2:05 PM

http://elitistjerks.com/581141-post5735.html

It's not rating.

Toots Hepcat · 12/27/07, 2:21 PM

Originally Posted by Ryley

Just a minor nitpick here, but I find myself helping top off groups on the AoE gauntlet to RoS or in P2 Illidan when I'm unable to hit the Flames (though this is rare, sup tauren hitbox), so I wouldn't use all leather.

Well, there are some very nice mail pieces and all the set pieces (some of which offer nice set bonuses) offer some int/mp5...but considering there aren't many of these fights, I'd rather rely on consumables, a wisdom buff and weapon & shield to augment my mana pool. That way I'm not sacrificing dps stats to int/mp5 the rest of the time.

Fearlezz · 12/27/07, 6:10 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

[e] Good news for Pawn users, the latest version now has a GUI configuration so you don't need the strings anymore. Simply type /pawn and then input your EP values directly.

Any chance we get this baby updated with expertise? Or does Pawn still not support Expertise

Sample Pawn string to use (uses Pater and Tornhoof's EP values):

* ( Pawn: v1: "EP (Mid-Raid)": RedSocket=17.6, CritRating=2, Strength=2.2, MetaSocket=24, Agility=2, HitRating=1.4, HasteRating=1.48, BlueSocket=17.6, YellowSocket=17.6, Ap=1, ArmorPenetration=0.25 )

Btw, I've been following this thread ever since I rolled a shammy, thank you all very much for all your hard work

Brum · 12/27/07, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by Yo!

This was a theory 100 pages back of this thread. The current one resulted in this line from OP...

Thanks, I missed that paragraph. The point of my post wasn't to argue that one weapon combo is better than another, but to give people some numbers to work with, as I hadn't recalled seeing any. After searching, I think I found the post Malan is referencing here, though the poster doesn't include any sim data

From his post, Ikuturso hit a Blasted Lands mob using both combos Rod of the Sun King/Syphon for 30 minutes with each combo, and didn't use Stormstrike. My tests lasted over two hours with each combo and I used Stormstrike. His tests yielded ~5% difference in the percentage of WFs eaten by the MH between combos, and mine yielded ~3% difference. I can't really draw any conclusions except that there's a discrepancy, but I find any live tests shorter than an hour don't allow enough time to smooth proc streakiness. So maybe my test is more accurate, but it doesn't seem to be any more useful atm. Guess I should find the average WF and SS dmg for each combo so I can refute/support Ikuturso's findings