Illundai

I've always went by on the principle that the rogues can have the leather first, unless it's on an extraordinary item such as [Cursed Vision of Sargeras]. I would've loved to compete on bidding with them on this, but the habits of old have the rogues with a leather priority. Like I said however, I don't really mind them having it all first. Considering you are there to buff them, not epeen about your own DPS you should be of the same mindset.

Yes, Death Knight tanks are/were too good in 3.0.x. Having 38k HP, 76.81% Avoidance (Miss incl.) and not gimping your threat in the first tier of gear is broken. (Yes this is clickable)

 

Atren

That is very bad reasoning imo. Yes, we make up our dps shortage from rogues with buffing. Despite that amount of dps we do is crucial, thats were you are wrong. I would say you should look more about the effect of the upgrade opposed to letting pure dps get item. I do not know how much of an upgrade it is relatively speaking from T6 or any other helm, but those enhance shamans who have equal chances on leather with rogues should find out and do their decision based on that.

Short version: We are there to buff, but overall goal is raid dps, not rogue dps. If you have equal rights to leather with rogues then go for leather upgrade if it is equal or bigger upgrade for you compared to rogues or dps warriors.

 

Illundai

Let's just say I disagree then. IMO, Leather is a luxury that is going to only offer a MARGINAL amount of DPS increase from your Mail. Some mail pieces are terrible, I'll agree with that, e.g. [Deadly Cuffs] vs [Wraps of Precise Flight], but in other slots the upgrade is really small; [Shadowmaster's Boots] vs [Softstep Boots of Tracking] / [Quickstrider Moccasins].

Don't get me wrong, I eventually do/did want those items, but I didn't mind waiting and using one of the mail equivalents, although they were a little worse. And yeah, of course your own dps DOES matter, but what is the difference between 10-30 DPS for you? What is that going to bring to the raid? Yeah, exactly - just as much as the 30 dps would've been to the raid when it came from the Rogue.

Yes, Death Knight tanks are/were too good in 3.0.x. Having 38k HP, 76.81% Avoidance (Miss incl.) and not gimping your threat in the first tier of gear is broken. (Yes this is clickable)

 

death_Phobos

Atleast someone understood my Question. THX for correcting the Typo.

 

kriondt

maybe this was already stated....but does haste and flurry share the same effect on WF?

 

Mulgero

Well to be honest for dps group living shaman is more value than living rogue. Our buffs only last when we're alive, better gear will give more sta, more armor, more AP which will result more dps for us and we live longer. Also in form of UR our AP increase goes to your group. Selfish or not but enhance shaman is always worth more than any other dps member in your group.

You should be selfish but not stupid when choosing whether to get upgrade or not. Whole mail/leather argument is old and purely worthless as I could say pretty safely that in 80-90% cases leather will be superior to mail pieces and by quite large margin.

 

Jaggana

Hello,

I've read the 1st post but i have some problems to use Yo's Simulator, is there any tutorial to help me please ?
I'm french and my English a kind of an obstacle...

Thx for the post !!

 

Capital

Might be stupid of me, but don't hunters want mail? So it really doesn't matter what you go for, you're competing with a class eitherway. Personally I think DKP is there to award those who give an effort, no need to make arrangements on the side. If leather grants more, why settle for mail?

 

Malan

What effect do they have at all on Windfury?

No it doesn't, UR is 10% of the group member's AP, not 10% of your AP.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Ung

Ok I couldn't find anywhere to ask this so I will ask here.

My guild atm is having the Windfury totem vs GoA Debate. As usual all the shamans druids and hunters thinks its evil to consider Windfury totem. One of the shamans came up with an interesting theory that Windfury gives 6% dps to rogues and Warriors while Goa is 3% more or less to every dps class ( not casters ofc ) So they are saying that the only time Windfury should be used is in groups like 2 warriors 2 rogues etc. Anything that even has 1 druid or hunter should be GoA

I was just wondering what exactly are that stats? Windfury vs GoA? I know the thread on page one says if warrior = in group then Windfury but I was wondering if there was any theorycraft to that?

Also any help in persuading them would be helpful

 

Malan

They're just pulling numbers out of their ass.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Toots Hepcat

While this BECOMES true in T5/T6 content, it is NOT true at lower levels. In and below T4, the leather offers 10+% dps increases over the best mail.

According to MaxDPS (using defaults, YES not a perfect engine but nice for comparisons):
[Fiend Slayer Boots] vs [Edgewalker Longboots] a 10% difference
[Shifting Camouflage Pants] vs [Shallow-grave Trousers] an 18% difference
[Girdle of the Prowler] vs [Girdle of Treachery] a 19% difference

A shaman trying to up his DPS to enter that content would do well to replace his mail in at least some slots -- boots, bracers, belt and pants, for example, leaving head & shoulders or head & gloves for the excellent T4 2 piece set bonus.

Keep in mind, though: if you are dealing with drops OR rewards, if you know your EP, you can evaluate an upgrade very easily. Roll on big upgrades. Howver, if you do this and ONLY this, as I do, you will wind up wearing a lot of leather.

 

Toots Hepcat

GoA is NOT 3% to all dps classes. It's 3.5% CRIT for shamans; other classes get different benefits due to different agi-> crit scaling and agi -> AP. But the benefit from GoA is not MORE than 3%, so let's run with it even though it's crap.

WF on the other hand is 13.2%+ (20%+ to 2/3) of a user's white damage (a straight 20%+ if they use 2H). Considering white damage makes up more than half of their numbers, DPS warriors and combat rogues see well more than the proposed 6% increase to total dps.

It all comes down to white damage percentage. All DPS being equal, two of your group get +13% to 60% of their damage, they're getting a larger benefit than if the whole group was getting 3%. (These are all conservative estimates.)

And all DPS is NOT equal. I have a sword rogue who does 900+ damage with GoA and 1000+ with Windfury. That's 50% more than what our feral puts out WITH GoA. Guess which totem I drop?

I mean, it's not like I *WANT* to drop it. Two weeks ago in Gruul's our raid leader (a hunter) put me in his group for GoA. I got second place in DPS, only a few points from our best sword rogue. Great for me -- not so great from the raid, who benefit so much from that rogue's output that we usually soulstone him.

 

Illundai

That's the thing, you are claiming bidding rights on 2 armor proficiencies. I bet you wouldn't like it if the warriors and ret paladins started bidding on your mail either :P.

PS: It's no use discussing the leather vs mail, it's been beaten to death before and nothing constructive comes out of it.

Yes, Death Knight tanks are/were too good in 3.0.x. Having 38k HP, 76.81% Avoidance (Miss incl.) and not gimping your threat in the first tier of gear is broken. (Yes this is clickable)

 

Malan

Its like every 10 pages we need to discuss this all over again.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Durigen

Ung, this has been beaten, like the leather Vs. mail debate, to death. It was once a horse, now it's a smear of glue - and people are still swinging. The basics are as the first post says...

Always use Windfury if the following conditions are True:
A DPS warrior is in your group
A warrior who is tanking is in your group
A warrior is in your group
If no warrior, more than 1 sword rogue is in the group

Grace of Air should be considered for use only if the above are false, and under these conditions:
A feral druid tank is in the group (ie, bear... not kitty)
A prot warrior is in your group on a non threat limited fight with high damage components
Any combination of more than 2 hunter/druids is in the group

I believe the general equation was something like...
WF if 2*(Warrior+Sword Rogue) > (Hunter+Druid+Dagger Rogue)

Not to mention the excellent mathematical breakdown posted above. Unfortunately for our DPS, there are few times when GoA will ever outshine WF on a melee group.

 

Niacin

Then please explain to me why my stats program, and other peoples stats programs report Windfury as between 4-6% total dps. Where is this 13+% you claim it gives?

GoA 3.5% crit to only shamans? You do realise that other classes also have reasonable crit rates from this totem. Rogues and Warriors gain about 2%.

If I actually saw the dps increase rates you were quoting, do you not think i would favor WF over GoA. The full explanation that i gave for my theorycraft of GoA vs WF, was based on sound common sense and ingame stats. It utilises ALL aspects of dps including dps from poisons, sharpening stones, bonus crit, and the basis of my post on our Guild site was to show that WF totem does not add 20% dps as was claimed during raids, and that GoA is not useless.

We had 1 Warrior, 2 Hunters in the grp. Another time we had 1 Warrior and 2 Hunters AND a Feral tank. You do not have the context with which to say "I have pulled numbers out of my ass."

You are incorrect with regards to my Guild, because you are not counting dps increases from other sources that WF replaces. Rogues can gain almost 2.5% dps increase alone from the crit, and the addition of a MH poison should push it past 3%. Like many theorycrafters, I assume you are only looking at WF vs GoA w/o including the loss of dps through other temporary MH weapon enchants.

 

Malan

Since your profile says you have no WoW account, I'm going to assume you aren't seeing any DPS increases at all.

And what "stats programs" are you referring to? Sure as hell isn't the DPS warrior spreadsheet or the Rogue DPS spreadsheets which clearly indicate WF as superior.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Ridan

Take time to read other's post please.



To add to this direct damage increase you have for warrior, to factor in the extra rage generated by windfury proc.

 

Nite_Moogle

Your stats program is wrong. You will not beat Windfury with GoA+weapon enchants in any reasonable raid situation.

 

Toots Hepcat

And whose fault is this?

Your point about ignoring other mainhand imbues is valid. It never occurred to me because my guild fields a real live melee group (warrior, rogues, etc) and we had seen with our own eyes the value of Windfury as opposed to stones & poisons.

If you're grouping with two hunters, then yeah, it's worth re-evaluating. If you are comfortable with empirical results that claim a 6% increase between the Windfury imbue and some other MH imbue, then you have answered your own question and you don't need our help.

This context also begs the question of why you've got those hunters in your group. Hunters gain nothing from UR.

 

Areus

The math has been done, time and time again to show that WF is far superior to GoA whenever a warrior is present in the group. People have done the math to show that WF is the best MH combat enchant any melee class can put on thier weapon. However, it also boils down to personal preferance. If you are not min/maxing then GoA is fine. It makes you look really good on meters.

I use Recount as my damage meter and WWS on occasion when I can get enough people from my raid to help gather data for an accurate readout. What program are you using to show others WF damage? I just get the number of extra attacks that they gained. Nothing to show the extra damage that they did.

If you keep getting put into a group with hunters/ferals your raid is not utilizing you to your full potential. If people are mad that they are not getting GoA, learn how to twist totems to benefit the group even more. Although at a cost of your personal DPS.

This is an age-old argument that needs to end, and people just need to brush off other peoples stupidity. Its your class, dont let other people tell you how to optomize it. You tell them how you improve thier class. Remind your rogues to not poison/stone thier MH because they will be getting WF. Even dagger rogues see an increase in DPS with WF so there is no argument for any other rogue MH combat enchant.

 

Unaz

Tanking warriors take more damage with Windfury down due to increased numbers of parries. So this is where you would use your brain to determine if the threat is worth the damage.

I generally only drop WF (since the nerf) if I have 1+ DPS warrior or 3+ rogues with me. With 2 rogues and no warrior in a full dps group, it usually comes close to a wash on goa versus wf. So I'd drop GOA to spread the buffs around.

 

Remraf

Personally, I like Totemus. It uses the Sphere mod, so you have lots of clickies in a close group, including all totems sorted by element. It also has totem cooldown timers, you can put your ankh timer on there.. i have it set up so it's left-click Purge, right-click Totemic call.. it's a really great addon you can find at wow.curse.com. That and Wf3sec (which I'm not sure is working atm) are pretty much all I need for shaman things.

 

Malan

You click to Purge? o.O

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06