Always use Windfury if the following conditions are True:
A DPS warrior is in your group
A warrior who is tanking is in your group
A warrior is in your group
If no warrior, more than 1 sword rogue is in the group
Actually I have to strongly disagree with this, for the following reason:
A 2H (MS) warrior, should be using a slam cycle for maximum dps. Slam can't proc WF so they effectively only gain 3-5% more damage from WF, therefore if you were presented with a group such as MS warrior/hunter/hunter/rogue/shaman I would drop GoA, especially if the hunters are BM.
So yeah I don't like this broad statement that dps warrior = WF, is very misleading.
Uh.. yea? I don't find myself needing to spam Purge that much.. so to have it on a nice big sphere right where my cursor usually is leads to quicker purges when i *do* need them. (I have it hotkeyed to 6, which is sorta far from the main usuable keys).
Many of the eternal debates posed in this forum are due to differences in philosophy. It boils down to which is more important to you: personal DPS, or raid DPS.
Personal DPS
Often marked by an elemental off spec.
Will roll on any upgrade, regardless of armor type.
Drops GoA.
Will sacrifice stam/armor for DPS stats.
Will sacrifice int/mp5 for DPS stats.
Keeps 2 pieces of T4 until upgrades exceed 26.4 EP.
Raid DPS
Often marked by a resto off spec.
Will pick up leather only if nobody else wants it, if at all.
Drops WF pretty much everywhere; may totem twist if mana allows.
Wants at least some stam/armor to make it easier for the healers.
Wants at least some int/mp5 to sustain shocks within a twisting cycle.
Keeps 2 pieces of T4 until upgrades exceed the benefit +12 STR offers the entire group.
Most of the regulars here are very raid oriented. Most of the new people are having personal DPS issues, that's why there here. It makes sense these issues would keep coming up.
Incidentally: I am taking my guild's raid downtime to re-evaluate the elemental spec and am noticing a ~6% personal DPS increase. Today is my last day, though -- I miss the faster Healing Wave and bigger totem radius, and I'm seeing more shock resists making interrupts and snares less reliable.
Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/02/08 at 3:46 PM.
Uh.. yea? I don't find myself needing to spam Purge that much.. so to have it on a nice big sphere right where my cursor usually is leads to quicker purges when i *do* need them. (I have it hotkeyed to 6, which is sorta far from the main usuable keys).
I pretty much spam purge constantly when in cooldown on shocks/SS our of habit. On mobs that need to be purged, you have to do it pretty much constantly to catch things quickly, and in PvP I'll moderate it a bit based on current mana and things like Lifebloom. But yeah, I don't think I'd be able to get anything done if purge was used for clicking.
I haven't gone through the last pages with a fine tooth comb or whatever, but I was wondering if it was at all possible, since you have commented the T6 content items and EP values on the main post, if you could possibly post which Hyjal/Black Temple gems are best suited for enhancement shamans? Thanks alot
Actually I have to strongly disagree with this, for the following reason:
A 2H (MS) warrior, should be using a slam cycle for maximum dps. Slam can't proc WF so they effectively only gain 3-5% more damage from WF, therefore if you were presented with a group such as MS warrior/hunter/hunter/rogue/shaman I would drop GoA, especially if the hunters are BM.
So yeah I don't like this broad statement that dps warrior = WF, is very misleading.
Out of interest, how does your MS Warrior generate rage while he is chain slamming?
I know that if I am a couple of seconds slow on my twisting due to having to heal or move some groups around mid combat my DPS Warrior lets me know about it!
However in the group you have quoted I don't argue the use of GoA, although I would personally twist.
Am I the only one praying twisting isn't removed because of how boring Enhance is without it?
A warrior uses slams in between auto attacks. You don't chain slams without due to the auto swing, otherwise it kills your dps. Thus a warrior still gets 20% of his white auto attacks into WF.
Am I the only one praying twisting isn't removed because of how boring Enhance is without it?
Refreshing totems on the run, spamming shocks/SS on the cooldown, watching the environment and your threat and your mana and being ready to Bloodlust/SR/interrupt/kite/splash heal isn't enough action for you?
I mean, it's not like we're Elemental over here.
Have you considered twisting Fire Nova and Searing/Magma? It's worth, like, 40 extra DPS for two actions every 15s and might get your heart rate up. Something to do with all that extra mana you'll have, too.
Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/02/08 at 6:49 PM.
Personal DPS
Often marked by an elemental off spec.
Will roll on any upgrade, regardless of armor type.
Drops GoA.
Will sacrifice stam/armor for DPS stats.
Will sacrifice int/mp5 for DPS stats.
Keeps 2 pieces of T4 until upgrades exceed 26.4 EP.
1. This has nothing to do with either raid dps or personal dps, it's preference.
2. Again, doesn't affect raid dps.
3. Thats just completely wrong.
4. And so should every shaman, I can't even name 1 time where the added armor from mail would have saved me.
5. Same, mp/5 is way too expensive to award getting some.
6. Ah, well I must admit I changed it early, but thats because the item I wanted to get instead was about to be dissed. 12 str in a group that greatly consists of rogues isn't that great anyway.
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Raid DPS
Often marked by a resto off spec.
Will pick up leather only if nobody else wants it, if at all.
Drops WF pretty much everywhere; may totem twist if mana allows.
Wants at least some stam/armor to make it easier for the healers.
Wants at least some int/mp5 to sustain shocks within a twisting cycle.
Keeps 2 pieces of T4 until upgrades exceed the benefit +12 STR offers the entire group.
1. Again, boils down to preference.
2. Thats just...wrong
3. 'meh, I'd say twisting is generally an aspect of the more raid concentrated shaman, I myself don't do it because I just can't see the fun in spamming buttons, and it generally takes my attention away from important events, such as death.
4. Stamina comes with the gear, It's really hard to have less than 11k health at T5 level with 2 warriors in your group.
5. Int and MP/5 are really expensive stats for our class, you should -not- be aiming for it at all.
This looks more of a good player vs bad player list than a well composed list of playstyles.
1. This has nothing to do with either raid dps or personal dps, it's preference.
Elemental *IS* better DPS, and it comes at the cost of raid flexibilty. The preference stems from philosophy. Thank you for proving my point.
2. Again, doesn't affect raid dps.
If I choose not to roll on a leather item that is an upgrade, I choose to give it to somebody else. That indirectly affects the raid's DPS and directly undermines personal DPS.
3. Thats just completely wrong.
Dropping GoA, regardless of group makeup? I'd call it wrong, but it's still quite common, even among folks who are aware of the theory, even in successful endgame guilds. I know this because I occasionally have to explain to melee from other guilds what Windfury DOES. I can only assume this behavior comes from a desire to personally top the meters.
4. And so should every shaman, I can't even name 1 time where the added armor from mail would have saved me.
I agree, and yet it comes up ALL the time.
5. Int and MP/5 are really expensive stats for our class, you should -not- be aiming for it at all.
I agree -- but one of the main reasons all our gear HAS these stats is that Blizzard expects us to play a more dps AND splash heal role, even though such a role can often mean a chaotic raid. From page one of this thread there have been people who spout the importance of these stats in filling this role, which is why I brought it up.
This looks more of a good player vs bad player list than a well composed list of playstyles.
Hey, it was an idea I had over lunch; a bad lunch. I think that philosophies play a large part in the eternal arguments but maybe trying to codify these isn't as easy as it seemed at first.
How much did your own philosophy color your reading of the post? I tried to explain how opposing viewpoints on contentious issues may be attributed to philosophical differences, and you called them "wrong." I think so too. That's kind of my point.
Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/02/08 at 7:44 PM.
Elemental *IS* better DPS, and it comes at the cost of raid flexibilty. The preference stems from philosophy. Thank you for proving my point.
It will not reduce raid damage in any way, it just puts extra strain on the shaman to make sure everyone gets the totems.
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
If I choose not to roll on a leather item that is an upgrade, I choose to give it to somebody else. That directly affects the raid's DPS and directly undermines personal DPS.
Reduce your own dps by 5, add other players dps by 5, overall, it's still the same. It's an RPG, without the will to kit your character out, why play?
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Dropping GoA, regardless of group makeup? I'd call it wrong, but it's still quite common, even among folks who are aware of the theory, even in successful endgame guilds. I know this because I occasionally have to explain to melee from other guilds what Windfury DOES. I can only assume this behavior comes from a desire to personally top the meters.
I don't know, I'm generally the only shaman around but I have to say that every shaman I know, knows that windfury is better.
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
I agree -- but one of the main reasons all our gear HAS these stats is that Blizzard expects us to play a more dps AND splash heal role, even though such a role can often mean a chaotic raid. From page one of this thread there have been people who spout the importance of these stats in filling this role, which is why I brought it up.
Well, you can see it's mostly removed on tier 4 and 5, tier 6 being un-adjusted as of yet. Though I have to say healing is now a part of enhancement shamans as of patch 2.3. When there is a lot of damage going about that extra burst of healing from a shaman with 1k + healing can save the day. The reduction of the mana cost on shocks actually allows us to do just that.
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Hey, it was an idea I had over lunch; a bad lunch. I think that philosophies play a large part in the eternal arguments but maybe trying to codify these isn't as easy as it seemed at first. Still -- how much did your own philosophy color your reading of the post?
People have preferences, it's a game and to a certain extent you should play it the way you want to. Some want to improve their own damage, others want to improve the general raid performance. Neither is bad.
To not turn this into a quotewar, a point from me. Say you have 2 shamans, 1 resto and 1 enhancement. Who would you put with the tank for Gift of Air?
Reason I bring it up, when my guild does/did Morogrim, we would rather have a druid tank than a warrior, makes for some nice soaking. And druids just love agility, so we also give/gave him a Gift of Air totem. In the end what shaman you'd use boils down to if you want more damage or more stability in the fight.
What do you guys think would be the best shammy to sacrifice?
People have preferences ... some want to improve their own damage, others want to improve the general raid performance. Neither is bad.
Which was sort of my point. I tried to clump these preferences together to form cogent philosophies, schools of thought on different ways to play a shaman without playing it badly.
To not turn this into a quotewar, a point from me. Say you have 2 shamans, 1 resto and 1 enhancement. Who would you put with the tank for Gift of Air?
You're moving the resto from a healer group, I assume, and the enhance from a melee group. This means your healers are losing ~35+ mp5 and ~100 bonus healing, which should be way less than 10%. Your melee group is probably losing ~20% due to the loss of totems. I think it's gotta be the healer who moves, unless you have mana issues.
Anybody in Tier 6 content finding that the 2xSONs (Syphon of the Natherizm) are better then the new S3 weapons for dps ?
Been running it in about 3 simulators & they all show that the SONs are better.
I use 2x Syphons and Yo!'s sim shows 2x Vengeful axes to be better. The sim showed 1374 dps with syphons and 1401 with vengeful axes. Another thing a lot of people don't realize about Syphons is that the proc actually hurts shadow priest and warlock dps, it consumes imp shadowbolt charges. The locks and priests in my guild bitch about it constantly.
I use 2x Syphons and Yo!'s sim shows 2x Vengeful axes to be better. The sim showed 1374 dps with syphons and 1401 with vengeful axes. Another thing a lot of people don't realize about Syphons is that the proc actually hurts shadow priest and warlock dps, it consumes imp shadowbolt charges. The locks and priests in my guild bitch about it constantly.
In my case Syphons were on par with the Vengeful weapons. The simulation result was 1504 DPS in both cases.
I suppose I have better stats than you, what made the 0.2 weapon speed of the syphons equal to the dps and stat advantage of the vengeful weapons. A 0.2 slower weapon hits harder with WF and SS. An Orc would make better use of the Vengeful Axes though.
I've been doing BG's since I hit 70 (1 month ago), and I got some honor and marks now.
Question: should I be purchasing the Sesion 1 gear?
Or save my honor points for other slots like rings and such that arnt arena gear options.
... I am getting my Arena batteles in, but arena points arnt really farmable as Honor is.
My take on it is to get two cheap pieces of season 1 and then focus on the vindicator gear with your honor. But that all depends on what you want. Do you want to spend more honor in the long run and get an immediate boost in resil? Or do you want to spend less and wait a while before getting good gear? To me having a semblance of survivability is more fun than being patient and waiting for gear.
Fortunately (or maybe unfortunately) there isn't much of any choice while gearing for PvP so I recommend just looking at what you can get, how much it costs, and how soon you can get it and then determine what your ideal plan is. Do it with pencil and paper if that is better for you. There isn't really any "better" way to go about it since you're going to wind up with the same gear in the end.
[Shaman] PvP + Enhancement = ? is probably a better place for this discussion since it's becoming the de-facto enhancement PvP thread. If this answer isn't satisfactory I'd go ask the question again (maybe with a bit more detail) in that thread.
In my case Syphons were on par with the Vengeful weapons. The simulation result was 1504 DPS in both cases.
I suppose I have better stats than you, what made the 0.2 weapon speed of the syphons equal to the dps and stat advantage of the vengeful weapons. A 0.2 slower weapon hits harder with WF and SS. An Orc would make better use of the Vengeful Axes though.
Really? Your gear isn't that much different than mine and I have Vengeful coming out ahead by ~30 dps.
Son, to me a robot's just a garbage can with sparks comin' out it.
A warrior uses slams in between auto attacks. You don't chain slams without due to the auto swing, otherwise it kills your dps. Thus a warrior still gets 20% of his white auto attacks into WF.
The fight was 3 minutes long. He has top of the line gear. He had a feral druid, had haste 4 times (probably DST), used deathwish, used recklessness and was bloodlusted all on a fight where there is some aoe damage that fuels his rage. I'd be surprised if he didn't pull those numbers considering the cooldowns he used.
01/02/08, 2:19 PM
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