Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 243

Myul · 01/05/08, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

I run at 10k health buffed and have no problems in T6 content. Keeping the S2 weapons over a Syphon just because of the stamina would be a pretty big mistake. Boneweave girdle is hunter gear, skip it and use something like the Shadow Walkers Cord.

[Shadow-walker's Cord] is for me actually one EP better than [Belt of Deep Shadow] beside the stamina gain, i can't spend my dkp on this.
Boneweave is better than Don Alejandro's by a remarkable margin. Only vashj could compete (and beat it).

I won't keep my S2 weapon if i'm able to pick up a syphon, but picking up all items without stamina would bring me into some serious problems.
Showing up that's our raid is lacking campheal won't fix my the problem for me.

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

Also, you're using the Greater Than symbol like an arrow. It doesn't do that. [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] > [Softstep Boots of Tracking] to me means "Nyn'jah's are better than the Softstep."

Ahh, should be "Upgrading from x to y". An arrow like -> would have been better, i guess.

death_Phobos · 01/06/08, 8:28 AM

Something i would like to see on the Main Page

-New Trinket AEP Ranking using T6 Values
-New Meta Gem AEP using T6 Values
-A Final Sentence/decision, at wich point, or if ever Executioner > Mungo

gorsameth · 01/06/08, 8:42 AM

Originally Posted by death_Phobos

-New Trinket AEP Ranking using T6 Values

Dont think anything changed at all in the trinkets with regards to which is better

Originally Posted by death_Phobos

-New Meta Gem AEP using T6 Values

RED is still the best you can have

Originally Posted by death_Phobos

-A Final Sentence/decision, at wich point, or if ever Executioner > Mungo

Dont think there was ever a conclusive answer to this question aside from the idea that they are just as good.[/quote]

Illundai · 01/06/08, 8:46 AM

I picked up a Rising Tide the other day (finally \o/) and I'll be running some tests with double executioner. I'm pretty sure one Executioner is better than Mongoose/Mongoose in t6 values, but I haven't seen any conclusion on stacking Executioner. Raiding is a bit slow due to backflagging some trials this week, so haven't done Teron yet (woo!).

Trinketwise, it remains the same order for me with my AEP values. Although I dislike on use trinkets, so I'll stick with my Tsunami Talisman (or Madness if we get enough of them -.-).

Bragor · 01/06/08, 9:05 AM

I'm pretty sure one Executioner is better than Mongoose/Mongoose in t6 values

Got any numbers to prove that ? <== Itching to do something new.

Nemaa · 01/06/08, 9:22 AM

Originally Posted by gorsameth

Dont think anything changed at all in the trinkets with regards to which is better

It's not true. For me the top4 is DST, Madness, Tsunami, Berserker's Call.

Ankha · 01/06/08, 12:45 PM

Besides what is covered in the first post, What Enchants should I get for
Bracers, chest, cloak, gloves, ring? TY in advance.

promdates · 01/06/08, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Ankha

Besides what is covered in the first post, What Enchants should I get for
Bracers, chest, cloak, gloves, ring? TY in advance.

It would seem like the best options would be:

Bracer - +12 Strength
Chest - +6 stats
Cloak - +12 Agility / -2% Threat (totally dependant on your playstyle and the tanks that you're with)
Gloves - +15 Strength
Ring - +4 Stats (a lot of discussion in the past week or so about this, it seems most people prefer 4 stats over 2 weapon dmg)

Rudel · 01/06/08, 1:30 PM

Just a quick question here, bear with me, I'm fairly new to all the Theorycrafting even though I've been playing for years. Been using Yo's to compare different gear this morning and it's giving me negative weights for my crit and agility. Running a 28.31 crit right now, not sure if the negative results would be correct weight values, or if the simulator is buggin out on me. Is it possible that I have too much crit?

Disquette · 01/06/08, 1:36 PM

Rudel, can you post a screenshot of the input screen on the sim that you use? Yo! might be altering the sim, or you might have some odd data in there.

Rudel · 01/06/08, 1:55 PM

Checking it again, it happened twice, also, I'm assuming with hit % on Yo's that you should automatically add the 9% from talents, correct? Want to make sure I'm inputting everything as it should be.

EDIT: Seems to have been bugging out a couple of times, or more than likely I put a value in wrong, it seems to be working fine now.

Malan · 01/06/08, 4:43 PM

Originally Posted by Rudel

Checking it again, it happened twice, also, I'm assuming with hit % on Yo's that you should automatically add the 9% from talents, correct? Want to make sure I'm inputting everything as it should be.

EDIT: Seems to have been bugging out a couple of times, or more than likely I put a value in wrong, it seems to be working fine now.

Yes you need to manually add the 9% from talents if you have it. Your post though says 9%, I hope that's just a typo and not what you were actually putting in the sim?

Paradox · 01/06/08, 4:57 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Yes you need to manually add the 3% from talents if you have it. Your post though says 9%, I hope that's just a typo and not what you were actually putting in the sim?

+6% from dual weild spec? or does the sim automatically add that? because i've been adding it manually.

Also.. i've just noticed something horrible. Enhancer users, inputting your AEP values and then clicking "high end values" does not import your values, but resets the values to a default high-end set of values... to import your own, you need to paste the string in and hit enter.. all this time i've been hitting the high end value button..sigh.

Xoya · 01/06/08, 5:06 PM

I have always added 9% to my paperdoll percentage as well.

Malan · 01/06/08, 5:25 PM

Ah yah forgot about the DW sorry, very hung over right now.

Toots Hepcat · 01/07/08, 2:45 AM

Now that Yo's has input for Mongoose, you should be able to sim it pretty easily.

With my gear, Mongoose > Executioner > Crusader > Potency, in any combination and on either hand, but not by so much it's worth getting my main hand re-enchanted. But I will be switching back to dual mongoose when I upgrade Dragonmaw.

death_Phobos · 01/07/08, 5:36 AM

Originally Posted by gorsameth

Dont think anything changed at all in the trinkets with regards to which is better

RED is still the best you can have

Dont think there was ever a conclusive answer to this question aside from the idea that they are just as good.

[/quote]

1) With the higher t6 values of -armor i think Madness should be rated higher (i guess)
2) Ofcourse RED is the Best. The Question was how much AEP is a Metagem slot with RED and T6 values worth?
IE can a ZA Helm be better than t4/t5 or whatever.
3) I think with the T6 values executioner should be better. But i hoped for a final (proofed by math) answer

Stopokingme · 01/07/08, 7:22 AM

1) With the higher t6 values of -armor i think Madness should be rated higher (i guess)
2) Ofcourse RED is the Best. The Question was how much AEP is a Metagem slot with RED and T6 values worth?
IE can a ZA Helm be better than t4/t5 or whatever.
3) I think with the T6 values executioner should be better. But i hoped for a final (proofed by math) answer

1) Madness, and the trinket from Leotheras come out better using end game values
2) It was proven sometime ago that RED is so good that any helm with a meta comes out as better then a ZA helm
3) The math was done some time ago, and the outcome was that both were pretty similar, with Executioner coming out slightly better, but not much.

everwatch · 01/07/08, 7:40 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

[color=red][size=2]What about using an Elemental/Enhancement build with Elemental Devastation?
One of the more prevalent suggestions is that Enhance Shaman should 'optimize' their DPS by speccing into Elemental for a 5 second shock cooldown, 5% increased shock damage, and of course the Elemental Devastation Talent.

Bad idea. First off, by giving up the resto tree talents you lose 3% Melee/Spell Hit. That's pretty significant, and that 3% along with Improved Dual Wielding in the Enhance tree lets you hit cap all melee special abilities through talents alone - no other class in WoW is able to do that. You are spending a lot of talent points to improve Shocks, which only amount to 5-6% of our damage. Most importantly though, the logic of this build is fundamentally flawed. A properly geared Enhancement Shaman will have at most a 6% spell crit rate from Intellect. Under perfect conditions this will amount to a 1% crit gain from Elemental Devastation. Under not so perfect conditions, this talent would be negligible and worthless to an Enhancement shaman.
The probability of getting 2 shocks in a row at 6% spell crit, in order to sustain the extra melee crit bonus of Elemental Devastation, is 1-(1- 0.6)^2 = 0.118, so almost a 12% uptime of extra crit from the talent. Or you could spec for a permanent 3% Hit to melee abilities. Check the stat weights in the next section and I'm sure you'll agree that this is not worthwhile.

I don't care a whit about Ele Devastation. It sucks. That said moving to my point.
I love this thread and all the hard work people have done here. But our new Enhancement Shaman was asking me a few weird questions telling me I was telling him stuff contrary to the first post, whereas I knew what I've seen posted and tested in here. Thanks for reading.

You are spending a lot of talent points to improve Shocks, which only amount to 5-6% of our damage.
Shocks comprise more than 5-6% of our damage. I've seen multiple well respected shaman post WWS that had many Shock %'s at an average of 10%. I spent more than a month as Enhance with Ele side spec, and listed/posted WWS reports showing my Shock % running at 16/17%. I'm not saying that's all spec related. Part is playstle, etc... However I send every shaman I meet who wants to know about Enhacement here. And the 5/6% comment is easily 100% off what I've seen to be the average on these forums, which is 10%.

I don't want to realy debate *again* the sides of Ele vs. Resto. But for newcomers here I think you should change the 5-6% to 10% on average.

Bad idea. First off, by giving up the resto tree talents you lose 3% Melee/Spell Hit.
I don't remember what page it's on, but it's in this thread. More than one numbers cruncher showed how the 1 second off of the CD for shocks and the bonus damage netted more total dps that 3% hit did for an Enhancement Shaman. No one refuted or proved wrong those numbers. Again, I'm not interested in debating Ele vs. Resto. However from a *purely personal DPS* perspective (not talking about Raid friendly or Utilitarian choices), Ele comes over and on top of the 3% hit.

The statements here are a bit misleading implying how Resto is better for personal DPS. I'd suggest simply mentioning that while Ele will bring forward a bit more personal dps, the loss of 3% hit/utility/raid friendly talents can be a huge loss.

My personal Enhancement days look to be at an end. I'm full Elemental now and helping along our new Enhancement shaman replacement.

Malan · 01/07/08, 10:58 AM

I'll change the % of shocks in the post. That particular section is *mostly* about elemental devastation, so it should stand there, that's one of the "looks good at first glance but is really dumb" types of things that needs to be explained.

As for the 3% Melee/Spell hit - what we really saw were people anecdotally saying that their DPS was higher using the elemental build. A few people posted some damage meter values for various fights and that was really about it. The problem in every one of those examples given (as I recall now, months later) was that they had varying group setups, had received gear upgrades between the points of comparison, and they often weren't even comparing against the same fights.

My personal belief is that the notion that you are going to pull off 12 shocks per minute is bullshit, and every shock that you miss from general lag or inattentiveness is 5 talent points going to waste. Yes I'm sure we can all go down to blasted lands with the intent of creating a WWS parse that shows exactly 12 shocks per minute. Now go replicate that on Teron or Illidan or Gurtogg.

Pitbuller · 01/07/08, 11:02 AM

With 5s shock CD you have to use either es/es/fs rotation or push last fs tick off table. That will lower shock dps fair amount. I m not sure how Yo's sim included this.

panny · 01/07/08, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

With 5s shock CD you have to use either es/es/fs rotation or push last fs tick off table. That will lower shock dps fair amount. I m not sure how Yo's sim included this.

He included it as the last tick of FS being wasted.

Toots Hepcat · 01/07/08, 1:35 PM

Elemental Devastation definitely sucks. With a 5% spell crit, you'd see ED up an average of once every 100s, for an uptime of around 10%. This makes 3/3 of this talent worth approximately .9% crit, the equivalent of 19 crit rating. (Cross this with Nature's Guidance which is worth 47 hit rating.) I suppose there's a desire to make use of the +int that's on all mail gear, but it still takes 70+ int for 1% spell crit.

However, the "5-6%" comment is puzzling, and I can only assume it is a result of pre-2.3 data from a T6 shaman, which will show less damage PERCENTAGE from shocks because shock damage didn't scale with gear. Shocks were a significant source of damage for many shaman that became more significant after 2.3.

This parse shows 14% of my damage coming from shocks (2 paladins, dropping GoA, Hunter AP buff) at an average of 9.4 shocks/minute. And of course this percentage goes up when you're using an Elemental offspec; the week I spent with this spec showed about 21% of damage came from shocks. I don't have any parses from this week because I didn't want my melee to have to hug totems on a new fight.

I disagree with Malan's assertion that shocking every 5s is tough -- I find it no tougher than hitting 6s shocks or hitting SS, and in either case DPS should increase as the lag would be constant (if it's hard to hit 6s shocks on the nose, it's just as hard to hit 5s shocks on the nose). One nice part of an elemental offspec is that 5s shocks align nicely with SS; with a FS - SS - ES cycle you should never have the SS cooldown up at the same time as a shock cooldown. One minor negative part is that you lose the potential to enter the 5 second rule in between shock and strike.

Personally I'd like to see the OP updated with some of the theory that shows elemental offspec as having the potential for better overall DPS, combined with the playstyle arguments against it.

Malan · 01/07/08, 2:18 PM

Tell ya what, I'll branch a new thread for discussion of Elemental vs Resto sub-spec and we'll hash it out there. That way its easily referenced later other than "search this monolithic thread for the words 'shocks' and 'elmental' and 'resto'. "

[e] Here you go: Enhancement Cage Match: Two specs enter, One spec leaves

Grzzt · 01/07/08, 3:18 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

Grzzt -- you have encountered my only problem with Yo's sim, which is that it requires Java 1.6.

Ahh, ok, thanks for the clarification! Unfortunately I'm stuck on OS X 10.4 for the foreseeable future. The weird thing is that the "Windows" build I was trying was actually Parallels. My image does indeed have Java 1.6 installed, but Yo's site still doesn't work, so I'm assuming it's some weirdness with Parallels.

In any case, I can run the site just fine on a genuine Windows box. Thanks!