What about DST, does it have it's own buff icon etc, while still being haste rating? Is it added up with the passive haste rating, or applied on it's own?

I would love to see a model (or numbers) showing the perfect amount of passive haste along with with x2 mongoose, dragonstrike, and flurry to hit a 1.5 speed on the nose.

2.7/1.02/1.02/1.3 = 1.9962736/1.5 = 1.3308 = 347.39 rating, -212 for dragonstrike = 135 passive haste needed.

You then get 2.7/1.02/1.02/1.3/1.3305 = 1.5004 speed.

valestalker + mukoa + 2x band of devastation = 36+37+31+31 = 135 passive haste, its almost like its planned :P

Assuming haste is handled the way Khlysti described you would need 135 passive haste rating to hit almost exactly 1.5 with the items listed. It's really not useful to know though since you'd be optimizing your gear for a situation that will only happen rarely. Any compromises you made to reach that goal would almost certainly hurt your DPS overall.

I hit 1.5 pretty regularly in raids, I however do not have any of the passive haste items yet. Cataclysm flurry (1.35), 2x Mongoose(1.02, 1.02), Dragonstrike, and Drums of Battle(1.278) = 1.504.

Flurry and dragonstrike proc are not a rare occasion

The 2 ppm from dragonstrike doesn't seem right, I'm certain its up more than that. On a slightly different note, I had 8 back to back procs a while back, the druid tanking was like, why do you have a permanent sprint animation.

edit: after looking at some WWS it would seemt he proc rate may be below 2 ppm, this seems strange because I tend to look at my character screen alot during raids, to see weapon speed, ap and crit (just to see what it spikes too) And the weapon speed are often hovering around 1.5 or lower, which I dont think would be the case without the dragonstrike proc.

Another thought, does wws pick up a refresh of dragonstrike if i dont lose the buff?

No, it doesn't. It's really quite annoying for tracking Flurry uptime. Also, if you have a Dragonspine Trophy, the buff is called "Haste" as well, so it's quite hard to actually tell how often they proc.

2 PPM sounds okay to me, are you factoring in the fact that all those haste procs increases the chance for further haste procs?

Is there any addon to track the MH/OH weapon speed over time? Can someone do it?
I'm thinking about a simple addon that summarizes weapon speed data like this:
"Time spent in combat: 300 seconds
Weapon speed, seconds, % of time spent
2.6, 45, 15%
2.0, 240, 80%"
and so on...
I think it would help us a lot to get real tested data.

Going from [Fel Edged Battleaxe] to [High Warlord's Cleaver] in the OH added 136DPS for me on our last Tidewalker kill.
I've only received some minor upgrades and dumped some +hit for more crit and AP. Needless to say time spent reading here is time well spent!

WWS

WWS

Thanks to everyone contributing to this thread, keep it up!

Something seems odd with those logs.. In the first one you clocked in 22% white crit, while in the second you hit 38% white crits???

Same for other skills, WF went from 18% to 32% crit, while stormstrike seemed the most normal at 24% -> 28%.

Was your group setup radically different, or something? That seems like an awfully large difference in crit to chalk up to WoW RNG streaks.

Sorry to quote myself here, but I haven't seen any responses. I have been watching this very closely, and even with an elemental shaman in my group last night to eat up the SS buff, I'm still seeing this trinket's procs making up 2% of my damage (though Recount doesn't give me 1/10th of a %, so that's as detailed as I can tell).

On Netherspite, with the Elemental Shaman in the blue beam, I used a different trinket to give him the full SS buff, so I can see that making a difference as far as usefulness, but I still would like to see the difference.

Oh right sorry missed the vial completely. 35 Hit Rating valued at 35/1.44 = 24.30 AEP with some sort of value from the proc... unless you're starved for +Hit this has just really turned out to be a poor trinket for shaman.

Just noticed we're not using the same scales for the trinkets, to match up with the other ones I posted they would have values of:

DFT = 84
KotS = 92
Romulo's = 49 + proc. This might not be a terrible trinket after all. Assuming 2ppm which I think is a bit conservative with WF it would add on average 9.3dps. You could argue that is equivalent to 129ap, of course it doesn't synergize with our yellow damage(except for possibly stormstrike by a small amount) so it would roughly only add 1/2 the value of straight attack power. I would say a conservative estimate gives it an AEP of 113.5 which is about right for where it drops.

I understand the hit rating being low value (and I'm not hurting for HR at all), but if it's making up 2% of my damage, rounded up, simple math would say that this is at least a 2% increase in my damage output. I'm wondering how that compares to an item with an AEP of, say, 107 or 118.

Part of this is my ignorance, but I wouldn't think that 83 AEP (the difference between what the proc'd ability would have to get me vs. using the Abacus) would mean a 2% increase in my damage. Am I wrong? I could be, just asking.

Uh oh. Well that explains why I couldn't figure out how you had valued one of the haste trinkets. Can you check the first post real quick and make sure I didn't make any other slip ups?

Pure speculation on the Ashtongue talisman.
Behind the scenes stormstrike is likely implemented as the 2 swings and then any successful hit attempts to apply the stormstrike debuff.

If each of these affects is granted a 50% chance to apply the effect then you get...
- 5% of stormstrikes get dodged and result in nothing.
- 95% both swings hit, both swings apply stormstrike (does not stack.) This results in 4 coinflips to apply the buff.

4 coin flips = 15/16 = 93.75%
93.75% * 0.95(non dodges) = 89% proc rate which is our observed rate.


I am still 3 weeks out from the trinket but a simple way to test if this is what is happening is to have someone who has the trinket put on a 2 hander (or staff if they have no 2H talents) and go test the proc rate. If it works the way I am guessing a 2 hander should see a proc rate around 71%.

Our class is so weird.

More evidence that the itemization team is not working very closely with the mechanics team?

First off thanks for gathering all this up into one thread, it has helped me alot in dicideing what to do. I do however have a few questions.
First off, whats up with flurry?, I see alot of math here use flurry as 30%, but in game, while duelwielding, it is more around 23%. Is this some kind of tooltip bug I missed or am I just missing something?
In that regard that brings me to my current problem, after a long time of thinking it out I have dicided to choose the Drakefist over the Planar Edge. I can't seem to choose an offhand though, I ruled out the blue weapons as they are all faster then the drakefist but have less dps then the two crafted weapons, and the arena weapon should be an option next season but not this one. So that leaves me with the two crafted weapons. From a stat point I like the stats of the Fel Edged Axe better, I saw a post a while back that showed 2.7/2.2 and 2.7/2.4 have the same chance to steal wf's so the advantege of the Runic Hammer is it's 8.5~ more dmg to wf's and ss, I then ran into another peice of info, I hear the drakefist procs alot, and adding it's proc with flurry the runic hammer goes to 1.43speed, with mongoose it's still at 1.414 but a 2nd proc puts it at 1.38, compairing it to the fel edged which goes to 1.32 is this loss enough of a difference to make up for the 8.5~dmg loss to ss and wf's?, Also I seem to see don't use under speed 2.4 alot, is there a specific reason for that vaule or is it just a general good vaule to tell people to stay slow/slow?

Thanks for the help on Romulo's Poison. That is more what I was expecting. I'm going to try to test out Abacus versus it (IF THE ABACUS WOULD EVER FREAKING DROP!!!!) and I'll let you know what it shows.

I have a few more questions I'm hoping someone can answer:

- If I were to get Decapitator, would it increase my dps to use that and put my MG Cleaver in my OH, or should I stick to using MG Cleaver in my MH and use this green lvl 70 fist weapon in my OH (it's 2.6 speed, of course)?

- Tornhoof's calculations (50 crit vs. 100 AP vs. 50 hit rating) use a base of 25% crit chance, 2200 AP, and 22% hit chance. WHO HAS THESE STATS??? First off, I'm not sure how an enhancement shaman gets to 2200 AP, and secondly, it seems against your point right after that:
My question is, has there been any work done to see what a more equal distribution of stats would give for the benefit of each incremental point? Though I would have a hard time believing that AP could be UNDER-valued in that model, I would be very curious to see if these weightings were constant for every level of gearing.

- Ring Enchants: +2 weapon damage or +4 to all stats? The mats for +4 to all stats are INSANE for how small the buff is, and I'm not sure +2 weapon damage, with flurry, SS, and WF wouldn't add up to more over time. Any thoughts? With slow weapons preferred for Shaman, I would think that would especially de-value this enchant.

- What reliable tools can I use to judge my dps? How do you test it? I'm trying to test it using recount and SWS, but they give VASTLY different results, and they're not always different in the same direction (sometimes recount is higher, sometimes it's lower), so it's hard to judge which is right.

Thanks for the help, sorry for all the questions.

Flurry is a 30% attack speed increase, but the way attack speed increases work are like this: Weapon speed = Weapon Speed * 1/(100% + 30%). That's the same thing as multiplying by 0.769, which is why you're observing a 23.1% decrease in weapon speed.
Why would you rule out the blue offhands just for having less DPS? The first post of this thread goes into a lot of detail explaining that slow offhands are necessary, regardless of DPS. Anyway, your only realistic option besides blues is the Runic Hammer (again check main post). That said, there's absolutely no reason the arena weapon shouldn't be an option this season. At 300 points a week (easily attained by a mediocre 2v2 team or a horrible 5v5 team) you'll end up with the Cleaver or Pummeler in 9 weeks.

As you mentioned the HWL Cleaver...I'm really interested in how this does against a 71.x 2.6 blue offhand or the FEB. Mainly because I PvP now more than I used to to get either the epic lvl 60 or blue lvl 70 weapon, yielding FEB at the moment.
I don't really know which PvP weapon is better, though; arena offhand will still take a while to accomplish.
Especially as I've read among the official forums that HW Cleaver is supposed to be better than the S1 arena offhand...


/edit:
@ Ilmater: These values are raidbuffed and are in no way off. 380 BS, 220 BoM, 196 SoE, +10% UR and you will probably be over the said 2200 AP.