Nobunda

Something that has been tugging at me lately... and my lack of knowledge with warriors has kept me from saying anything to our dps lead.

My question is... Does Heroism benefit a MS warrior more or a Enhancement shaman? Im always the one getting moved to another group for our resto/ele shamans to pop there heroism for melee. If our warrior was DW then I would have no beef as it makes as much sense as me having it as well. However having a 3.5+ weapon swing faster for 45sec doesnt make as much sense as having two 2.6-2.8 weapons recieving the same love. Anyone know of a way I could calculate his DPS gain to our DPS gain from heroism? Or am I just being selfish and shouldnt even bother????

 

Malan

Heroism will definitely benefit your warrior more. (Assuming he's a good player) More swings for your warrior = more rage = more abilities being used, especially when it comes to executes.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Nobunda

Then im curious as to why they dont stack more haste... Guess I need to hit him up and see why. Thanks for pointing me in a direction, as I tend to argue with myself on certain matters especially when I have no knowledge of other classes.

 

Freyalis

This is just an informed guess, but your warrior probably isnt stacking a lot of haste as past a certain point is has a negative impact on their Slam cycle. With some weapons, just flurry is enough to put them at an ideal attack speed where slam slots in between auto attacks without clipping them. Heroism however is such a huge buff that it would still be a DPS increase even if it takes your warrior past that point.

 

ChaguraED

Correct me if I'm wrong:

They are moving the Enhancement Shaman out of the melee group, so that the Ele shaman can be in it to BL?
Is this just for one Pull only while yours is on Cooldown? or a permanent thing?

 

Katrael

This sounds highly situational to me, at best. Most 2h warriors are better off keeping to they're normal slam rotations, even below 20%, so it's mostly a question of which of you has better personal DPS.

 

Illundai

Rotating the lusts I suppose. Once the Enh Shaman's lust runs out, you put another shaman in there, he uses BL and then the enhancement shaman goes back.

Yes, Death Knight tanks are/were too good in 3.0.x. Having 38k HP, 76.81% Avoidance (Miss incl.) and not gimping your threat in the first tier of gear is broken. (Yes this is clickable)

 

• Binkenstein

Exactly. For melee-centric fights like Kaz'rogal and Archimonde, rotating heroisms can be very effective, as well as the massive range on the buff itself.

 

Malan

Improving slam beyond 1.5 seconds cast time is useless since you can't press the button faster than the global cooldown. Just as shaman value different stats higher than others, warriors value crit and AP much much higher than other stats.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

◊ Wraithlin

Which asks the question, how much does heroism help a slam warrior.
Even using a 3.8 weapon, with both heroism and flurry up the warriors swing drops below 3seconds (2GCD's) so he will start clipping his autoattacks. I would be interested to see some simulation math on this as a friend of mine recently passed on DST for me for this very reason; he is respeccing Slam DPS.

Does anyone know if the cast time on slam is speeded up by heroism ?
Clipping wouldnt be anything like as severe as when the term is applied to hunters, but it would still cut into the dps gain significantly. Even without lag, (i.e. with perfec ttimings) the rotations would either look like this:

0 Swing + instant
1.5 Slam
2.8 <Clipped autoattack.
3.0 Slam finishes casting.

Or
0 Swing + instant
1.5 Slam
2.5 Slam finishes casting
2.8 Swing
3.0 Instant
4.5 Start casting slam
5.5 Slam casts
5.6 Autoattack
6.0 Instant
7.5 Start casting slam
8.4 < Clipped autoattack
8.5 Slam finishes casting+ Autoattack
9.0 Instant
10.5 start casting slam
11.2 < Clipped autoattack
11.5 Slam

 

◊ Wraithlin

Ignore, my search-fu was weak.

 

Leonina

I am a kara-running enhance with resto subspec.
I have my 9% +hit from talents and only 84 hitrating from gear.

I thought that with the 9% hit from talents, my windfury and stormstrike wouldn't be dodged ? or parried if I'm stupid enough to stay in front of a mob.. Have I completly misunderstood the 9% ?

 

◊ Wraithlin

Hit only counters misses, dodge and parry are separate and only affected by expertise rating.

 

Leonina

Thanks alot, that eases up a burden for me.

 

Wolfsoka

Forgive me if this question has already been asked, but its been bothering me for a bit.

I've been looking into replacing my Decapitator in my main-hand with one of the Gladiator's Cleaver's from Honor, because the cleaver has better overall stats. I would much rather not do Arena, so its not an option. Anyway, I am curious as to how important damage range is to a shaman. The Gladiator's Cleaver is 189 to 285 damage range, will Decapitator is 167 to 312. Would I notice a particular large decrease in damage done?

I ask this because Yo's simulator doesn't seem to take damage ranges into account.

 

Shha

Assuming ideal rotations for Slam heroism is still usually a bit wasted. Slowest realistic weapon would be Torch which is at 3.68 swing (when you calculate the haste on it). Flurry is generally 100% for a 2h (unlike DW, because of huge ratio of skills:swings). Assuming that slow of a weapon and no haste gear , swing with 3/5 flurry is at 3.2. Lust drops it to 2,46 which is below the theoretical "2.5" mark. Count some lag and you get more of a waste.

Same way faster weapons , that are usually prefered - like Cat's Edge at 3.5 drops to 3.04 speed with flurry . With some moderate amount of haste (lets say 1 piece for around 30) you can get more or less to 3.0. Lust drops it to 2.3 , which is a considerable waste.

Also, if the warrior isnt the only 2h warrior in the raid (we have 2), there is a chance he might be specced 5/5 flurry, or even full 2h fury. The waste can get pretty big there (5/5 flurry+1 haste piece+ cat's edge basically puts you at 2.75 speed, so heroism just cant have more then around 8% effect on your dps - even NOT counting lag.

To sum it up - it depends. The heroism effect on warriors varies from around 0-8% (5/5 flurry, 3.5 speed weapon) to 25-30% (Torch/no haste gear/3/5 flurry). The numbers range depends on your lag. Its pretty obvious its worth it to switch the warrior out in 1st case, and to switch the shaman in latter.

(speculations). As a raid leader i would probably look at weapon speed and set it around 3.0 flurried speed as the "limit" where the lust rotations would switch from prefering warrior to the shaman.

 

Rhagok

Umm well I don´t see why we are discussing warriors here and their Slam Rotations and or HAste gear selections.

Anyway You should consider that if the second Bloodlust from the Ele / Resto Shaman is during the Execute phase then again the MS Warrior will gain a huge benefit over the Enh Shaman. I mean I usually kill all of our Warriors and most of the time one of our Rogues in DpS but the numbers which Warriors do put out in Execute Range is just totally crazy I mean a well geared Warrior puts out about 2,5 - 3k DpS during Execute. ^^ So well I don´t quite beat him there :P

 

◊ Wraithlin

Because the gains to a slam warrior from heroism are:
Slightly faster cast on Slam
Faster swing for white damage

The swing timer leads to a negligable gain in dps because it is dropping below the GCD, and so doesnt allow the warrior to use any more skill than he could anyway. So, if the faster swing time doesnt actually translate into more swings because of clipping, then the gain from heroism for the slam warrior is small/none and you would do better to swap the resto shaman for the slam warrior, heroism, and swap them back.

 

Crystael

I'm leveling an enhancement-specced Shaman at the moment and I was wondering at what point it's worth switching to dual wield. Intuition would tell me to wait til I've got 3/3 dual wield specialization; is this correct or should I start dual wielding as soon as I can?

inaninterstellarburstiambacktosavetheuniverse

 

• Disquette

There's nothing special about damage ranges for us, so weapon choices boil down to:

dps
weapon speed
stats

don't worry about a 100 - 200 weapon versus a 50 -250 weapon. They'll do identical damage over time.

 

Wolfsoka

Thanks

So would the stats on Gladiator's outweigh the slightly lower DPS compared to Decapitator?

Well I suppose I could see for myself by comparing EP values.

 

automatica

Yes and yes.

 

Blazingwater

Any chance you can post spell rotations with the 0/45/16 build and the 16/45/0 build? I know what my spell roation is with the resto sub-spec, but I'm sure people would want to know a roation with totem-twisting or the ele sub-spec. Thanks in advance.

 

mek

As soon as you can.

 

Malan

This is still being worked out and hotly debated in the other thread.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06