Sebudai

Why aren't you a fan of including hit?

Lets see if I'm messing up.

Insidious Bands
28 Agility: (1.67*28) = 46.76 EP
Yellow Socket 5 Str/5 CR: (5*2.2) + (5*1.72) = 19.6 EP
Socket Bonus: 2 Agi (2*1.67) = 3.34 EP
12 HR: (12*1.71) = 20.52 EP
58 AP: (58*1) = 58 EP

Total: (46.76) + (19.6) + (3.34) + (20.52) + (58) = 148.22 EP

Deadly Cuffs
Yellow Socket 5 Str/5 CR: (5*2.2) + (5*1.72) = 19.6 EP
12 HR: (12*1.71) = 20.52 EP
28 CR: (28*1.72) = 48.16
58 AP: (58*1) = 58 EP

Total: (19.6) + (20.52) + (48.16) + (58) = 146.28 EP

 

Dukanull

Deadly Cuffs
Yellow Socket: 5 Str/5 CR - (5*2.2) + (5*1.72) = 19.6 EP
12 HR: (12*1.71) = 20.52 EP
28 CR: (28*1.72) = 48.16
58 AP: (58*1) = 58 EP

Total: (19.6) + (20.52) + (48.16) + (58) = 146.28 EP

Wouldn't you socket these with a spinel? Can't see any reason to make a yellow socket bonus fit with stamina.

Vindication-wow.com

 

Illundai

Not messing it up, Deadly Cuffs come out by 2 AEP for me too. I have picked them up, just not quite sure what gem to put in it (we're running low on Pyrestones T_T)

Yes, Death Knight tanks are/were too good in 3.0.x. Having 38k HP, 76.81% Avoidance (Miss incl.) and not gimping your threat in the first tier of gear is broken. (Yes this is clickable)

 

Sebudai

Ah yeah, Vashj belt is the best, sorry. I copied my list over from my guilds forums and since we don't raid SSC anymore I didn't include that belt on my original list. Edited my post to include it.

It should be lower than that. I put it at 2930, which is the fully debuffed average between the two common boss armor values.

 

Tambard

No, you're 100% right in your calculations. I, personally, prefer to calculate based on pure stats. If they're within approx 4 or 5 EP, depending on the item, AND one has hit on it, I'll go with that; however, I don't like the concept of sacrificing 12-15 EP for Hit, when it doesn't make much of a difference.

 

• Jamor

Do you seriously not weight hit when you are comparing loot for yourself?


EDIT: Sorry, you answered the question when I had the compose message up.

IMO you discount hit a little too much. White damage still makes a up a huge chunk of damage for a shaman.

 

Sebudai

I wouldn't, but I'm sure a lot of people would. If you use a Spinel instead then Deadly Cuffs end up being .46 EP better than Insidious Bands.

There's nothing wrong with hit rating and it would be a mistake to discount it. It has an EP value just like any other stat. It's just barely worse than crit rating for me(as you can see by the EP values I posted previously.)

 

Dukanull

I don't understand why you'd socket that with a pyrestone. It's simply better to go with the spinel and no stamina. As has been stated multiple times; stamina is a nonissue for most t6 content since we have enough on our 'best' gear as is.

Vindication-wow.com

 

Tambard

I've been raiding with under 100 hit since I set foot in BT, and now at 48 hit, I'm landing in the Top 4 on pretty much every melee friendly encounter. I feel hit is being highly over-valued in the stat weights, so rather than take the time and find a decent value for it, I just ignore it, and my DPS has been steadily climbing. In my final item selection, I will have 75 hit, and that's more than enough for me. -shrug-

Edit: I still have a lot of the same final gear choices.

[Cursed Vision of Sargeras]
[Choker of Endless Nightmares]
[Shoulderpads of the Stranger] or [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator] ((For non-LWers))
[Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape]
[Midnight Chestguard]
[Bindings of Lightning Reflexes]
[Fists of Mukoa] / [Grips of Damnation]
[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] (([Don Alejandro's Money Belt] otherwise))
[Bow-stitched Leggings]
[Shadowmaster's Boots]
[Signet of Primal Wrath]
[Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring]
[Madness of the Betrayer]
[Dragonspine Trophy]
[Dragonstrike] / [Syphon of the Nathrezim] ((I don't like to PvP))
[Syphon of the Nathrezim]
[Stonebreaker's Totem]

 

Sebudai

There's a few reasons I personally didn't socket mine with a Spinel, but I agree most people will. Considering the list I posted is supposed to be the "best" gear as far as damage output, I'll go ahead and switch it to include Deadly Cuffs.

That is some very flawed logic. What makes you think hit is being highly over-valued?

 

Strygwyr

For Tambards list, you might want to include that Wicked Edge of Planes and Rising Tide would be better for an orc shaman.

 

Sebudai

I've updated my original list once again to include [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] since I had missed those. The list should be completely accurate now.

 

drats

I know you're undervaluing hit, but even so how do you get the Mail of Fevered Pursuit over [Midnight Chestguard]? Due to the heavy itemweight of MP5, my EP for the Mail is considerably lower than the Chestguard.

 

Tambard

The T6 stat values put hit even with Agility. If you're going to tell me that I should be evaluating gear with a stat that is widely regarded as a lesser stat to a decent one, you're crazy. I'm not saying that I'd go all crazy and run with no hit whatsoever. I'd prefer to be around 75 (But I cannot seem to get the hit drops to come). There's no reason to do say...


Softstep Boots of Tracking
AGI = 45.09
Crit = 44.72
AP = 76
Hit = 29.07
____________
194.88 (165.81)


Shadowmaster's Boots
AGI = 50.1
Sockets + Bonues = 26.76
Crit = 29.24
AP = 76
____________
182.1


You're gonna sacrifice 16+ EP for some hit? I'm not.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

However, with your weights, even without hit... Midnight Chestguard is a better choice...
(My original Math on this was done before established weights came out for T6)

Midnight Chestguard
Sockets+Bonus = 60.6
Hit = 49.59
Crit = 79.12
AP = 106
_______________
295.31 ((245.72))

Mail of Fevered Pursuit
AGI = 81.83
Crit = 49.88
AP = 108
_______________
239.71

 

Sebudai

Ok, here's a question for you: Would you take 1 strength over 20 hit rating? Remember, strength is our best stat and hit rating is a "lesser stat".

 

Tambard

It would depend on the outcome of the stats... If the difference was just that 2.2 EP vs. the 20 hit... No, I wouldn't. But to lose 16 EP for 17 hit... Not worth it in my opinion. If I were to give hit a value and try to evaluate stats with it... I'd say MAYBE... .75 But for me, I really just look at the outcome. If an item is way ahead in raw stats, I'm not giving that up for hit. I just don't see any justification for it.

Another Note: In my final setup (if you're using Shoulderpads of the Stranger), a Shaman would have 9 Expertise and 124 Hit. which even the pro-hit fiends would enjoy.


Edit: I'm not saying that I want to avoid hit at all costs... I'm just saying that sacrificing a large portion of stats for hit seems highly flawed to me. Especially when I've experienced in the game how little having low hit effects my DPS.

Or check out the belt you're using due to lack of SSC...

Boneweave Girdle
AGI = 63.46
Hit = 29.07
Crit = 41.28
AP = 76
____________
209.81(180.74)

Don Alejandro's Money Belt
AGI = 48.43
Socket + Bonues = 41.6
Crit = 32.68
AP + 76
____________
198.71


Worth the hit? :-\

 

Tambard

As I said, I was mainly just posting due to my personal experience with Hit Rating. Malan wants to talk about simulators and this and that... Using information from YOUR THEORIES to further prove YOUR THEORIES is clearly better than realtime trials. I don't really care if my findings are widely accepted, as I've seen and discovered them to be accurate, but when Malan is clearly stating in his OP that "hit is just less important than the others[stats]" and then wants to justify that the OP is correct in it's ridiculously high value for Hit makes no sense to me. As my itemization on the previous page shows, I'm not running all over looking for items without hit. I'm doing what is suggested in the OP, and picking up the highest PURE STAT items in the game and picking up whatever hit comes along the way. I'd like Malan to show exactly how it's possible that, for a Shaman, Hit can possibly be worth as much as Agility... It makes no sense whatsoever, and I will never itemize as such.

If you guys want to, go right ahead! If it somehow makes sense to you, I fully support you, and I hope it works out for ya; however, I'm not just going to read a site and take what it tells me as fact until I can see some in-game evidence. And from everything I've experienced... As I swap hit items for stat items, DPS increases substantially.

 

Malan

By your same monkey logic I guess we can conclude that Attack Power is also a 'lesser stat' and we should stop including it on EP values as well since its only worth 1 EP. May as well drop Haste off of it as well.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Tambard

Wow... lagged like crazy.

 

• Raut

Thanks a lot for the help, Sebudai. I have to go over the list and see what my options are.

Tambard: Since you are such a fan of theorycraft, do you agree that your white damage misses? And if it does, do you agree that increasing your hit rating will make you gain DPS by more white damage? Thus hit rating is a valuable stat, right? It may not be of equal value to str, AP, crit or ag, but it matters.

You should be very careful to claim stuff based on observations. Observations are seldom enough data for empirical evidence. And even if you do, look at your SWS data and figure out how much DPS gained you have from, say 5 AP or 20 hit rating. It should be doable to reverse engineer your attacks to apply the two additions. I expect you to see the hit gain come out on top.

Baby, you can hold my balls.

13:17 < Kalroth> gays on men tv? I love that channel

 

Tambard

lol, as I said a few pages back. You guys can do whatever you want. Good luck with it! Using simulators with your theorycrafted information to further prove your theories is pretty nice. I was just noting what I had experienced in the actual game content and questioning how it's even fathomable for hit to be worth the ridiculous amount it's listed at. You're on a righteous crusade to defend the OP, when you won't even address the fact that you're defying your own written words, Malan. THAT is amusing.

 

Mengus

Possible benefit in PvP? The higher burst potential might be worthwhile... but as Disquette mentioned, for PvE, speed > damage range assuming equivalent dps.

 

Mengus

Also keep in mind that the more haste gear you're sporting, might mean expertise and hit being more useful than it otherwise would be. Also, keep in mind that when raid buffed, you might possibly see some diminishing returns in the benefit of AP/STR over other 'minor' stats. I mean, if you're rocking out at something like 5K AP buffed, hit might be a more substantial investment. Also, keep track of your percentage of white damage... if it starts climbing higher, hit might become more important.

 

Tambard

Okay... OP:

What do I win?

 

berg

No one here are pro-hit fiends. You are anti-hit and have provided nothing resembling data to support your stance.

You are effectively telling everyone to agree that 0.8 and 0.0 represent the same value.

I do not care what gear you put on your character but expecting everyone to assign a value of 0 to hit is completely absurd.