Sebudai

So you agree that a certain amount of the "lesser stat" will trump 1 of our best stat. My next question for you is how much hit rating would it take to outweigh 1 strength for you. And once you've answered that question my next question would be, what are you even basing your conclusions on?

I'm not sure why you would agree with and use the accepted EP values for things like CR, Agi, Str etc. only to arbitrarily discount the accepted EP value of hit rating. You're basically telling math to go fuck itself.

 

Malan

You're taking what I've written in the OP to an extreme, like "to the moon" extreme.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Tambard

I don't expect that. I'm simply saying that valuing a commonly agreed lesser stat equal with Agility is ridiculous. As such, I simply ignore it, and the results I've experienced have been very positive. I'm not saying it's the end-all be-all of theories, but it's almost as ludicrous as having a section on the site explaining how hit should not be valued as high as pure stats, then doing the exact opposite in stat evaluations.

 

Dukanull

I agree with Don Alejandro's over boneweave, but mainly because of the flavor text.

Vindication-wow.com

 

Malan

Your argument is ridiculous, not the stat weights. As Sebudai said, you're taking your "feelings" as facts, and saying the math can go fuck itself.

I challenge you to find any place where I or Yo or Disquette or Rob or Sebudai have said that Hit rating is "a lesser stat."

You say "sacrificing 17 hit isn't worth 16 EP" which is an ignorant statement. You're comparing apples and oranges. 17 would translate to well over 16 EP which makes your statement ludicrous at best and makes you look like you were too lazy to whip a calculator out. Even at the lowest value of "standardized" EP values in the OP (for entry level T4), 17 hit rating would be worth 22.78 EP. Is 22.78 > 16 EP? Yes, I think it is.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Tambard

I could get SWS reports... Go and pick up the hit items, get SWS reports... And put it on "paper"... But I'm not really interrested if it's commonly accepted or not, nor am I interrested in picking up downgrades. It has proven true time and time again FOR ME that Hit is ridiculously overvalued on this site, and there has been no reasoning behind why it deserves the ridiculous stat weight it's given. Why not prove that it deserves the insane weight it has, rather than saying the math is right? I'm basing my claim on observations, while you're saying the unfounded math is correct when it contradicts commonly accepted theorycraft.


And who says it's correct? It has been wrong many times before. Oh... And one more thing... From the OP:

If that's not you saying hit rating is a lesser stat, then I don't know what is...

 

Malan

No you're basing your BS on "wow look at my dmg meter on this 7 minute long fight" and then committing fallacies of logic. You're basing it on 2 things really - jack, and shit.

On the other hand we as a community base our valuations on a cumulative total of simulation hours that is approaching the millions of hours run, which have categorically been shown to be accurate through in game analysis, none of which you have shown.

Contradict common theorycraft? I think you're a little mixed up here bud, because whats in this thread is the accepted common theorycraft.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Mox

Madness comes out at 160 EP for me, BC is 150 and I have almost identical gear to both Sebudai and Illundai. (However I use the BC because I prefer it to madness due to not needing the hit, I run at 200+ hit rating already just from using "the best" item in each slot, and because I like heroism + BC on use).

I ran the sim x5 @ 10,000 hours and got an average of:

1 AP
1.98 Crit
1.79 Hit
1.88 Haste
0.34 Armor pen
2.2 Str
1.93 Agility
3.31 Expertise

Thats for mongoose/Mongoose setup (if you use Mon/exe you get different EP values for crit/agility).

Although I don't know why my crit/agility values are much higher than Sebudai's, maybe buffs.. leader of pack? I Never have a feral in the dps group so could be that.

 

Mox

Is it possible for you to get a WWS log of a raid or 2? You said earlier that you "get top 4 on dps", however with no numbers that means very little. For example you could be getting top 4 dmg with 1200 dps or top 4 dmg with 1800 dps and thats a huge difference.

If you want your theory to hold water you need to show some numbers.

 

Sebudai

Except I could post my own WWS of me undoubtedly doing more damage and since I have more hit rating I could somehow equate that to meaning hit rating is awesome. Shitty logic is shitty. Embrace the loving arms of math.

 

Toots Hepcat

Tambard, maybe it you had more hit rating you could hit the submit button on the first try, and thus avoid multiple posts.

Most of us trust the simulator because the results are in line with what we see in game. I recently made an upgrade that decreased my critical chance by about 1% but added 30 hit rating and 20 AP. Simulator suggested it was a major upgrade, on the order of 10 dps, and that's about what I see -- an average of 10 more DPS on fights I did the previous week in a similar group.

Whenever I trust the EP, I seem to do well. Whenever I aim for a particular stat, I seem to get boned. If the EP says Hit Rating is worth 1.5 AP, I trust that at the very least, it'll be close to that. Our DPS is a feedback system and what the EP tells us is that balance is more important than min-maxing.

 

◊ Rob

We really have come full circle. First, it's "rofl why rnt u hit capped?" Now, it's "hit is worthless lol nub!" Suffice to say that if you just don't value hit at all, you *may* end up with the right items at the endgame, but you *will* get some of the wrong items along the way. (Skipping out on Skulker's Greaves is a huge mistake, for example.)

This list is going to basically be consistent with any other shaman's list. (I.e. even though they have different customized EP values, these are just the best items in-game period.) S3 weapons are better than Syphons for any race. The only possible exceptions I see on your list are that Deadly Cuffs and Insidious Bands are functionally equivalent (honestly, it is roughly a 2 AP difference no matter how you socket), and Softstep are slightly better than Shadowmaster's if you are forced to socket with Rare-quality gems (instead of the Epic-quality gems that would be expected). I would also add that Shoulderpads of the Stranger only pull ahead of Shoulders of the Hidden Predator when socketed with an epic gem and the two items are really functionally equivalent as well.

I noticed you prefer Softstep and Fists of Mukoa, is this because you like wearing mail? The dilemma I face in choosing between these options and their leather near-equivalents is that the leather items do stack more Stamina and would probably produce more survivability in a raid environment, where IME armor is of little to no concern (and if you end up tanking something you throw a shield on until it can be taunted off of you). My guild is on Illidan at the moment, so I have seen most encounters that you have, but I don't have your level of gear to be able to say "oh, I've got plenty of stamina, no need to look for more."

 

Zealoz

Well I am sporting an interesting Dilemma. My gear has improved greatly over the last 3 weeks with the additions of Syphon, T5 Helm, Insidious Bands, Mantle of Darkness, Nether Shadow Tunic. While my overall DPS has increased I have noticed (through WWS) an additional increase in Melee misses by nearly 5%on some encounters. And an increase in misses with SS/WF by nearly 1-2%. My damage allocation seems to be right on between Melee/Specials/Shocks. I have some WWS from early this month where I added the Syphon, Mantle of Darkness and T5 Helm. But our RL hasn't posted WWS from the last 2 weeks, probably because we have been working on Archimonde alot. But I will try to get them.

My armory is probably showing my PVP gear from last night but I run with unbuffed 1676 AP, 19.65% Hit, 28.84% Crit. And Expertise rating of I believe 25 (Orc + Belt on One-Hundred deaths) and zero haste.

Any thoughts as to why my misses are increasing, but my DPS is also increasing? I replaced S1 Cleaver/S2 Hacker (Hence the FT attacks in WWS) in OH with the Syphon. And running W.E.P. in MH. Am I missing something, doing something wrong? I have tried to model after Malan, Sebudai, Yo, and Disquette. So I am a little perplexed by this indication. Is this a normal expectation that as the damage output increases as does the number of misses or potential misses?

WWS

 

Mox

Unless you're in Hyjal I don't even see how this is possible ...

your damage on Rage winterchill

6.2% miss on stormstrike??? Not possible... something/someone is screwing up your logs.

 

Zealoz

Most of the increases in miss% have come off the bosses in Hyjal. The BT Bosses that we have killed up to this point I haven't noticed that big of an increase in misses. Is the Armor rating of Hyjal Bosses that much higher?

So that is interesting. I don't maintain the logs so I have no idea what happened.

 

◊ Rob

Armor rating does not impact miss chance.

On the other hand, "Banshee Curse" from Banshees in Hyjal trash packs sure does.

 

Mox

Armor rating has nothing to do with hit chance.

Are you using 3/3 DW spec and 3/3 natures guidance in your raid dps spec? If you are your stromstrike/WF have no chance to miss at all.

 

• Chicken

What WWS refers to as misses is in fact the amount of attacks that were missed, dodged or parried. So a 6.2% "miss" on Stormstrike could very well just mean that 6.2% of the Stormstrikes that were done were dodged.

 

Leonina

Dodge + parry shows up as miss in WWS if my memory serves me right..

 

Zealoz

I am 3/3 DW and 3/3 NG and was at 128 +Hit during these encounters.

 

Mox

Ok well like previous posters pointed out (and I had forgot) WWS includes parry/dodge as "misses". So if you have those talents + that hit rating your SS/WF are not missing at all, I recommend getting an ingame meter such as swstats or recount and actually checking this for yourself if you want.

 

Toots Hepcat

Ahem -- this is generated by one of those stats parsers that merges Dodge/Block/Parry/Resist with true Miss for a combined Miss chance.

There isn't a whole lot of data for Stormstrikes and thus you can't trust the miss rate on any single parse for it. You'd need to fight for 16 minutes to see even 100 SS swings. I have seen parses where SS never misses and others where it misses 10% of the time. It's just random numbers with a small sample set dude.

Incidentally, what the HELL are you doing with Flamestrike on, man?

 

Sebudai

After your mana pool has shrunk a bunch from using a lot of leather, I think intellect actually starts to matter a little bit if you totem twist. While generally stats like mp5 and intellect are totally meaningless to us, you still do need a large enough base mana pool to sustain the twisting cycle in between SR's. Intellect and mp5 are definitely terrible. But at this point, when I'm deciding between two items that are equivalent dps-wise, I'll normally take whichever one has more intellect.

Using Fists of Mukoa, Boneweave Girdle and Softstep Boots of Tracking gives me about an extra 30 seconds of totem twisting, which ends up mattering on encounters like Illidari Council, Mother Shahraz and Gurtogg. If I didn't totem twist it really would be impossible to run out of mana and I would definitely prefer the other options.

 

Poprostu

guys plz help me ... what u think about this boots ?

Earthen Netherscale Boots - Items - World of Warcraft

 

Pitbuller

[Earthen Netherscale Boots] 61.6ep + 6agility becouse you can chooce 12agility over cat swiftness enchant. I have to say: dont waste gold.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.