.. - Tornhoof's calculations (50 crit vs. 100 AP vs. 50 hit rating) use a base of 25% crit chance, 2200 AP, and 22% hit chance. WHO HAS THESE STATS??? First off, I'm not sure how an enhancement shaman gets to 2200 AP ..
I'm just under 1500 AP unbuffed. Screenshot from last night's raid shows 2323 AP. (No flasks/potions.) My crit is ~25% unbuffed, my hit is lacking but is a lower priority than other stats.
My gear is far from good (nothing SSC/TKE yet) but my point is that its easy to get a lot of AP from raid buffs.
Last edited by Azide : 07/16/07 at 4:27 PM.
Reason: typo
If I were to get Decapitator, would it increase my dps to use that and put my MG Cleaver in my OH, or should I stick to using MG Cleaver in my MH and use this green lvl 70 fist weapon in my OH (it's 2.6 speed, of course)?
Do the math yourself, it's easy. (DPS of MG - DPS of Decap < 50% * (DPS of MG - DPS of green); you'll find the MG Cleaver goes thus goes in the OH by a wide margin.)
- Tornhoof's calculations (50 crit vs. 100 AP vs. 50 hit rating) use a base of 25% crit chance, 2200 AP, and 22% hit chance. WHO HAS THESE STATS???
Plenty of shamans can hit those stats in raids. BoM is good for 220 AP untalented, MotW 28 AP untalented, SoE 200 AP talented, Battleshout 305 AP untalented... meaning you only need 1447 unbuffed AP to hit 2200 buffed, and that's without Kings or any elixirs/flasks/scrolls/food, and before Unleashed Rage (I believe that Tornhoof's calculation did not include UR in the 2200 figure). I hope this result also answers the rest of your questions on this point.
- What reliable tools can I use to judge my dps? How do you test it? I'm trying to test it using recount and SWS, but they give VASTLY different results, and they're not always different in the same direction (sometimes recount is higher, sometimes it's lower), so it's hard to judge which is right.
Our DPS varies highly from encounter to encounter based on random luck on crits and WF procs, whether we're behind the mob or not (and thus being parried/blocked), our buffs, and the level of the mob, so you should expect to see variance; SWS and Recount should both be relatively accurate but all in all I prefer a good WWS parse to either one.
Hi, this is my first post here, been reading awhile. I enjoy and learn from the posts. Unfortunately I have a long way to go gear wise to get where most of you guys are.
The question on ring enchants reminded me of a something I had searched for but not found regarding meta gems.
I have pre kara gear but DW fel edged battleaxes. AP is about 800 depending on where I am and what I am doing, crit about 20% to hit gear about 5%. So I am nowhere near where you guys are and my concerns are different but I hope to have those concerns in the future.
Anyway I figure I hit about 1 time a second in combat.
That means a ring enchant would be adding 2dps each or 4 dps for 2 rings. My meta gem is +3 damage and chance of stun. I looked but could not find information on the chance of stun on this site or information on the way the +damage on this gem compares to other meta gems.
If I recall correctly about 14 AP is equal to 1 dps. Each ring enchant is equivalent to 28 ap or 14 strength. The meta gem leaving aside the stun would be 42 AP or 21 str. This seems pretty strong to me but I have not seen anything about them.
I am an enchanterer but use the +spell damage since we have not been able to get that far into kara yet.
I'm just under 1500 AP unbuffed. Screenshot from last night's raid shows 2323 AP. (No flasks/potions.) My crit is ~25% unbuffed, my hit is lacking but is a lower priority than other stats.
My gear is far from good (nothing SSC/TKE yet) but my point is that its easy to get a lot of AP from raid buffs.
Factor in food an an elixir or flask buff and you only need 1300 AP to reach 2200 in a raid, probably closer to 1100-1200 when Unleashed Rage and talented buffs are considered.
I would wager that most if not all groups have DPS warriors, certainly. Who is going to battle shout the rogues? (You have those, right?). Blessing of might is another hefty chunk. If you can only get one blessing, in general I would go with might. The exception being Hydross, lootreaver, and Leo, where salv would be a must. If you are pulling agro off your tank on things like mag, karathress, tidewalker, or lurker, I would take a serious look at your tank's threat generation before questioning yourself. (Or to make it a no brainer, use a druid.).
You can and should also pick up AP buffs from food (20 STR food) and a Flask, depending on what you are raiding. You can also keep in mind that your enchants are a place to make up for lacking stats. If you need more AP, get crusader. It procs like mad on a shaman, and double procs are quite frequent. I checked the WWS from the last morogrim I did with double crusader, and I show myself gaining Holy Strength 24 times during the fight. It could be slightly higher due to refreshing procs, but that still puts it at 3 PPM. (The fight was 8 minutes.) But, I use Crusader to make up for a slightly lower (1400 ish unbuffed) AP because I have higher crit from gear (About 30%), and because I'm cheap- I specced enhance for a few weeks since we were long on healers and short on DPS. If your stats are the other way around, get mongoose.
Liking the work you guys are doing with the Haste rating, definetly lots of food for thought.
The question I have, since my guild is currently working on Kael, is which legendary should I be using?
Devastation vs. the infinity blade MH. Seems like I do HORRIBLE dps with the two-hander, and almost seems worth it to just use my regular set-up (Wicked Edge/2.6 S2 Axe) or switch the wicked edge for an infinity blade. The speed boost seems useful for running from Sanguinar to Telonicus, then to Kael to interrupt that potentially lethal first fireball, as well as running to eggs. On the other hand, I'd be running slower, but doing more consistent and reilable damage.
I have heard Stig say on multiple occassions he uses Devastation, thoughts?
I use the dagger simply because the axe is the last weapon we kill whereas the dagger is generally the second. ( It's supposed to be the third but the rogues and I would rather kill the dagger than the healing mace.. >_> ) I've been really satisfied with my dps output with it. Although we're still learning the fight so I find myself throwing a ton of heals during the hectic transition from the weapons to the advisers so I lack the mana to dps at full.
Boy would I love to see the big numbers that axe could generate. Every once in a while I run around in raids with my Gorehowl out just to see big numbers, it puts a big smile on my face But that is for after we get the fight down pat.
If I am remembering the post from Stigmata correctly, he said he tried out the two hander, but that he lost at least 400+ dps using it compared to DWing.
Factor in food an an elixir or flask buff and you only need 1300 AP to reach 2200 in a raid, probably closer to 1100-1200 when Unleashed Rage and talented buffs are considered.
Yeah, Rob's post answers that question. Sorry, I completely forgot about SoE and UR, and was just looking at character sheet AP. Ridiculous. That's why I don't figure these things out for myself... keep missing things. :P
Originally Posted by Rob
Do the math yourself, it's easy. (DPS of MG - DPS of Decap < 50% * (DPS of MG - DPS of green); you'll find the MG Cleaver goes thus goes in the OH by a wide margin.)
No, it's not that easy at all... since they're the same speed, the MH should proc WF much more often, and thus its dps becomes favored. Then you have to factor in the gain from SS. I'll try to do this on my own:
169 avg dmg of green OH attack
253.5 avg dmg of MG Cleaver attack
239.5 avg dmg of Decap attack
So every SS, that's:
253.5 + 169/2 = 338
239.5 + 253.5/2 = 366.25
28.25/10 = 2.8 increased dps on SS
Increase from MG Cleaver in OH, Decap in MH: 10.85 flat dps, * some increase for flurry.
Now, given that the MH procs WF more often, that's 28 more damage every WF proc (14 average damage difference every hit, x2 hits). Since it can't possibly proc more than once every 3 seconds (obviously that's over-rated), that is less than 10 dps increase, so you're right, I'd say there's no way it could be better than Cleaver/green combo.
But I was also kind of curious how close it was, because if it's a couple of dps difference (not scalable), then I'll let someone else have it. Also, I'm wondering if I'm accounting for everything (so many freaking procs on chance with shaman that I always for get things) so I can make the same calculation for a 71.7 dps OH. Assuming my math was right above, then you would even prefer Decap/Cleaver to Cleaver/Harvester. The math comes out to 1.9 dps increase from SS, 7.5 dps from the greater added dps, and I doubt the 28 extra damage from every WF proc on the MH (and lower dps from every WF proc on the OH which I left out above), it's still a good dps increase.
So unless I missed the Decap/Cleaver combination would be prefereable to anything short of two Cleavers.
Plenty of shamans can hit those stats in raids. BoM is good for 220 AP untalented, MotW 28 AP untalented, SoE 200 AP talented, Battleshout 305 AP untalented... meaning you only need 1447 unbuffed AP to hit 2200 buffed, and that's without Kings or any elixirs/flasks/scrolls/food, and before Unleashed Rage (I believe that Tornhoof's calculation did not include UR in the 2200 figure). I hope this result also answers the rest of your questions on this point.
After adding everything out and factoring UR, I realize where I missed the ball. I was assuming that the calculation was using pre-UR calcs, and that would make a big difference.
Our DPS varies highly from encounter to encounter based on random luck on crits and WF procs, whether we're behind the mob or not (and thus being parried/blocked), our buffs, and the level of the mob, so you should expect to see variance; SWS and Recount should both be relatively accurate but all in all I prefer a good WWS parse to either one.
I keep hearing about WWS... I'll get it tonight. Hope I can figure out how to view its results.
If I am remembering the post from Stigmata correctly, he said he tried out the two hander, but that he lost at least 400+ dps using it compared to DWing.
Correct, I dont use the 2 hander other than for about 1 or 2 mionutes for the run speed buff while pinging about between adds/weapons (and to see 10k instant damage is always amusing.)
With the bow debuff and DW'ing the damage output is insane, waiting for 2+ seconds between attacks is horrible in my opinion, so using the 2 hander is not an option.
If the equilibrium values include raid buffs, wouldn't that dramatically increase the value of hit relative to AP/crit? Getting over 2200 AP and 27% crit with consumables, iBS, LotP, and BoM is easy, but there's not a single class or potion that can give me more hit. No matter how I change up my gear, with a DPS warrior and a feral druid in my group I'm over equilibrium on AP and crit, and at least slightly under on hit.
The equilibrium values suggest that I should be worried most about hit for maximum raid-buffed DPS, but anecdotal evidence from other shamans on this board says otherwhise. Am I missing something?
You don't need hit to increase your rage generation, you will only need hit to have more white damage/windfury proccs.
That are big differences from warrior (rage) and rogue (combat potency talent) points of view. It might only be more important if you can achieve a dragonspine trophy.
All three stats scale well, but attackpower gives you the best reward (check the linked thread for further details and formulas) at this certain point. You will hit over 9/10 attacks with 22% hit (including 5% dodge), but crit will help you further with flurry uptime and attackpower with manaregen from your shamanistic rage talent.
To the 2200 ap discussion, Malan added some explanation, maybe you should reread posting #1 from time to time or have a quick look at this quotation for finally clarification:
Originally Posted by Malan
But 2200 AP is a *lot*, how can I achieve that?
Well lets take a look at buffs.
MotW (w/o Talent) - 28 AP
Strength of Earth (w/ Talent) - 200 AP
Blessing of Might (w/o Talent) - 220 AP
Battleshout - 305 AP (w/o Talent)
Strength Food - 40 AP
Elixirs/Flasks - 110 AEP (Agility elixir) or 120 AP (Relentless Assault)
2200 - 28 - 200 - 22 - 305 - 40 - 110 = 1297 AP that you would need on gear, and this isn't even accounting for unleashed rage! Its not hard to achieve 2200 AP in a raid, and once you factor in Unleashed Rage, Blessing of Kings and people putting talents points into these buffs, you will easily exceed 2200 AP.
That said, Shaman need all stats in as large of quantities as possible. The above is not a rule, there are no magical numbers that we can point to of "you need this much hit/crit/AP." You need lots of each, probably more Crit than Hit according to models, but still lots of each.
Current theory is holding that we may not need anywhere near the hit cap like we previously thought. Reference this thread around pages 12-14-ish for discussion of hit rating. Many of us are running with significantly lower levels of hit rating and seeing very large DPS gains.
Ah, just read your last edit was yesterday, didn't realised it's right after midnight here.
But i've got two another questions:
1. Doesn't that difference between hwl cleaver and feb does result only from the non-existing speed normalisation on several instant attacks, does it?
138-207 dmg (172 avg) High Warlord Cleaver
128-239 dmg (183 avg) Fel Edged Battleaxe
2. I'm confused about that (maybe i missed the discussion in this or the other thread about it?) passage:
Originally Posted by Malan
But what about Main Hands and Off Hands in Black Temply/Hyjal that are 2.7 and 2.8 speed?
Jury is still out on the most effective way to place a 2.7 and 2.8 in your MH/OH (especially if you still have a 2.6 in the other hand) and I'll update when we have more conclusive evidence. For now, go test it yourself!
Should'nt we use them on the offhand instead of the mainhand? The slower your offhand is, the smaller is the chance to consume your mainhand windfury charge. The upgrade to a [Rising Tide] is only 2 dps, but your mainhand should only have 2.6 (arena) or 2.7 (blacksmith) speed. Or is this only true for the procc of [Syphon of the Nathrezim] and you missed out the axe?
Last edited by Myul : 07/16/07 at 6:47 PM.
Reason: grammar
No, it's not that easy at all... since they're the same speed, the MH should proc WF much more often, and thus its dps becomes favored. Then you have to factor in the gain from SS. I'll try to do this on my own:
169 avg dmg of green OH attack
253.5 avg dmg of MG Cleaver attack
239.5 avg dmg of Decap attack
So every SS, that's:
253.5 + 169/2 = 338
239.5 + 253.5/2 = 366.25
28.25/10 = 2.8 increased dps on SS
Increase from MG Cleaver in OH, Decap in MH: 10.85 flat dps, * some increase for flurry.
If Decap MH + Cleaver OH is better on white DPS it will also always be favored for yellow DPS -- there's no reason why the MH will proc WF much more often -- you said yourself that they're the same speed. Similarly, if Decap MH + Cleaver OH is a bigger pair of white swings than Cleaver MH + Green OH, it will always be a bigger pair of yellow swings (Stormstrike). See why it's easy now?
Originally Posted by Lujaar
If the equilibrium values include raid buffs, wouldn't that dramatically increase the value of hit relative to AP/crit? Getting over 2200 AP and 27% crit with consumables, iBS, LotP, and BoM is easy, but there's not a single class or potion that can give me more hit. No matter how I change up my gear, with a DPS warrior and a feral druid in my group I'm over equilibrium on AP and crit, and at least slightly under on hit.
The equilibrium values suggest that I should be worried most about hit for maximum raid-buffed DPS, but anecdotal evidence from other shamans on this board says otherwhise. Am I missing something?
They are not "equilibrium" values, they are values at which the formula 1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.43 HR = 0.9 HasteRating holds true. So, no, hit is not dramatically increased in value relative to AP/crit.
Should'nt we use them on the offhand instead of the mainhand? The slower your offhand is, the smaller is the chance to consume your mainhand windfury charge. The upgrade to a [Rising Tide] is only 2 dps, but your mainhand should only have 2.6 (arena) or 2.7 (blacksmith) speed. Or is this only true for the procc of [Syphon of the Nathrezim] and you missed out the axe?
As Malan said, the jury's still out -- nobody's yet developed a convincing closed-form model, and nobody's tested this in practice. If you'd like to simulate this, you can download the Java sim and try it yourself.
Correct, I dont use the 2 hander other than for about 1 or 2 mionutes for the run speed buff while pinging about between adds/weapons (and to see 10k instant damage is always amusing.)
With the bow debuff and DW'ing the damage output is insane, waiting for 2+ seconds between attacks is horrible in my opinion, so using the 2 hander is not an option.
The axe has better stats in my opinion (allmost 2% hit and a bunch of stamina), which you might also want to weight into your comparison. For you, as an orc shaman, your racial with +5 axe weapon skill comes into account, to.
It should really depend on the ppm of the mace weapon procc (it's only 120 damage per applying, not counting resists).
We could really need some data mining from Stigmata, Sebudai or another fast progressing shaman or fury warrrior here. Eg can two proccs stack like lifesteal enchant?
The mace should be harder to get (rogues could also want it, but the axe it not really interesting for hunters).
I guess, your upgrade from an arena weapon to the axe on your mainhand might be noticeable, but shouldn't be a clear jump. "Upgrading" from a blacksmith weapon to the axe could be a downgrade in the worst case (losing 0.1 attack speed). But i think, from our knowledge point nowadays, the mace should allways be superior in your offhand then the axe and any other choice do.
Is a combination of 2.8/2.8 really better then 2.6/2.8 regarding stealing wf proccs from your mainhand will need further ingame testing (or java simulations, but those data should be taken carefully).
Chosing between weapons with same statpoints would be an easy decision (the slower one of course!), but in this special situation, it will really depend on the mace procc.
Last edited by Myul : 07/16/07 at 8:07 PM.
Reason: typo
Correct, I dont use the 2 hander other than for about 1 or 2 mionutes for the run speed buff while pinging about between adds/weapons (and to see 10k instant damage is always amusing.)
With the bow debuff and DW'ing the damage output is insane, waiting for 2+ seconds between attacks is horrible in my opinion, so using the 2 hander is not an option.
Who wants to start a petition to change the 1h sword into a mace :P
Also, something amusing but completely unrelated: last Lurker, my crit rate for white damage and Windfury were 33% and 32%. For Stormstrike it was 18%.
No, my dagger skill is like 320ish so I stick with my normal weapons.
Originally Posted by Myul
We could really need some data mining from Stigmata, Sebudai or another fast progressing shaman or fury warrrior here. Eg can two proccs stack like lifesteal enchant?
Been in the same boat with deciding between 2x syphon, or a rising tide mh with syphon oh. I attempted to run the sim a little while ago to help decide, here are the results I got:
------------------------------------ ESCS -------- RISING TIDE 2.6 and SYPHON 2.8
-- INPUT DATA --
Player AP=2400, H=28.0%, C=30.0%, Haste=0.0%. SScooldown=10.0s
Player Weapons: MH=208-313/2.6s, OH=196-365/2.8s
Monster Level=73, Armor Mitigation=30.0%
Combat duration: 360000 seconds
07/16/07, 4:24 PM
But that is for after we get the fight down pat.
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