Of course we care about it. We delay abilities such that we suffer the least from delay -- so we delay the one that contributes the least overall dps.

Course, I usually decide it like this: if Flame shock is next in the shock rotation, I shock first. If Earth shock is next, I strike first.

How do you factor in that SS is our only Instant that can proc WF. So I suppose you wait for WF CD to be up, otherwise you are gimping your DpS so ... Now if it is up you have a 36% chance on SS to proc a MH WF. And that one surely is our most powerful ability isn´t it.

I'll usually do the opposite, but I guess that comes down to whether you A) raid with an elemental shaman, and B) care more about raid DPS than personal DPS.

This is false logic. You are comparing overall damage of SS limited by 10 s cooldown with shocks that have 5 or 6 s cooldown instead of comparing one SS to one shock. So you say that if you are given a choice what to do when cooldowns for SS and shock end at the same time you rather shock instead of SS with a chance for WF? What if SS would have 100 s cooldown and deal 10x damage that it is doing now?

A few pages back, when Yo's simulator first included a "Sleep SS up to X s" button, I showed that you lose almost all the benefit from the extra chances to proc WF if you slip even one shock every 2 minutes.

Same holds true here.

No, it doesn't. One Stormstrike will do more damage than one shock. You should always SS before shocking if you have to make that choice. How much each ability contributes to our total damage output is irrelevant. Shocks only contribute more total damage because they have a shorter cooldown. And actually, after you factor in Windfury procs from SS, I doubt shocks even contribute more total damage.

One Stormstrike will deal more damage than one shock. This is all that matters when making this decision. I do agree that totem twisting takes priority over both SS and shocking.

Let's not toss around "false logic," here.

We don't compare ONE shock to ONE SS because we aren't REMOVING actions from the cycle, at least not directly -- we're delaying them, to make way for other actions. That action is still occurring, it's just occurring later.

DPS is damage over time...we aren't decreasing the damage, we're increasing the time it takes to deliver. If you slip 1s off one cycle or the other every minute, it takes 1.7% longer to deliver that amount of dps. It doesn't matter which cycle it is:

Strikes (considered as 8% of dps) takes 1.7% longer: (8% dps * 10s)/ (10s * 1.017) = 7.86%
Shocks (considered as 15% of dps) takes 1.7% longer: (15% dps * 6s)/ (6s * 1.017) = 14.74%

The chance for WF isn't a meaningless point, but look at it this way: SS offers us an extra 20 hits per 100s. Slipping by 1.7% would make this an average of 19.6 hits per 100s. What's the added value to WF for .4% hit?

Well, there's no argument there, either, since somebody maintaining a 5s shock cycle would never collide with their strike cycle. They also wouldn't be twisting, because that's insane.

Anyway, you're better equipped than I am to settle this debate, because you have a codebase and all I have is crazy math: Model the GCD. Give us the option to prioritize:
Strike over shock
Shock over strike
Flame shock over strike, strike over earth shock.

I don't understand how you could make this so complicated. They're both instant. Stormstrike does more damage and costs less mana. If Stormstrike had a 3 minute cooldown and contributed only 1% to our total damage output you would still want to prioritize it over a shock. The amount of damage each ability contributes to our overall total is completely meaningless.

How about if there is window for just one ability because after that you have to drop totem and you do not want to loose that? That's how "best possible cycles" are theorycrafted - almost all of the cooldowns are used and shock is lowest priority so you are actually going to loose it sometime. Or SS. Your choice?

I have to go with Sebudai here definitely. If you have one ability that does more damage than any other ability you have. It does not depend at all on which cooldown it is, you want to use it as often and therefore as soon as possible (And this ability is SS outside of WF CD just to make sure my words aren´t turned at me later). Otherwise it will result in a loss of DpS.

SS procs WF, shocks don't. If you have a 2.6 weapon and are flurried 100% of the time ceteris paribus Stormstrike will account for 1/6 of your WF procs and damage. Since most of us aren't flurried 100% of the time, it's even more than that. Using some theoretical "8% SS, 12% shocks, 30% WF" numbers, SS accounts for a larger percentage of your damage.

For pvp you also have no glancing blows and no level difference. I plan to add pvp option later though it will be of limited use as far as I understand challenges that we face in pvp. You will rely heavily on feelings what weight to assign to stam, dodge from agi etc... Interapts in dealing damage are also unpredictable and change quality of damage output.

Well, there is an option in the sim to disable SS so it is possible to find what truly deals more overall damage. Shocks deal more. In regards to WF it shows that SS increases WF damage by 10% only if not waiting for cooldown and by 20% if waiting. But overall damage is not a factor in choosing what instant ability to use.

Proposed change(s) to the main post -- comments?

Malan, there are two sections labeled "VIII.3" so you'll probably want to fix one to be labeled VIII.4. I'm not sure how much of a priority continuing to maintain this thread is with the TTT coming along, so I guess don't bend over backwards to fix that.

VIII.7.1 Itemization - MH Weapons

Optimizing enhancement shaman DPS requires running two slow weapons with Windfury Weapon on both weapons.

The best way to choose between multiple items in the same slot is to run Yo's simulator, once for each item, using the stats that you would have with that item equipped. Do not post asking which weapon is best: find out for yourself by running the sim. That said, here are some general guidelines.

Arena Season 3 weapons (e.g. [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]) are the best currently available.

Any combo of [Rising Tide] and [Syphon of the Nathrezim] or a pair of Syphons is the second-best option for those unable to attain an 1850 arena rating.

Arena Season 2 weapons (e.g. [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver]), [Dragonstrike], [Wicked Edge of the Planes], [Netherbane], and [Talon of the Phoenix] round out the list of third-best choices.

Generally speaking, if you are an orc, you will want to choose axes for the +5 Expertise Bonus.

The differences in DPS within these "tiers" are relatively minor. Which weapon is best for you, or which weapon to mainhand and which weapon to offhand, can only be found by using the simulator with your stats, and no general conclusions can be drawn.

-----

The "OH weapons" section could probably use an update too. Maybe just a redesign for the way these sections are laid out. I also don't know the ZA weapons off the top of my head, so add them to the above if I'm missing something.

Should clarify that as an orc there's no added benefit for using 2 axes, only 1 is required.

Do you have a cite on that? My understanding was that the expertise will only apply to the hand using the axe if you are only wielding one axe.

First time poster saying hi!

Anyway

I whored a second syphon the other week to replace my rising tide for my MH. Was this a good call? Yo's! sim shows my DPS should go up using 2 x Dual Syphons over Rising Tide/Syphon but it feels like im lower down in DPS. I dont have time to parse it with both combinations in BL. Only have time for raids and work!

So

Syphon(exe)/Syphon(mong) > Rising Tide(exe)/Syphon(Mong) ?

Thanks

From first post.

A question about the sim... I noticed some new changes.

Do I input my stats WITH Kings now? Or just input all my base stats, including base agi/strength, and the sim will calculate BoK now?

And a suggestion/request, how about the ability to save profiles on the sim?

Base stats, including base agi/strength

When modeling the rotations need a clarification: WF totem applies the weapon buff every 5 secs. Does it last for 10 or 9 sec? When it applies the buff, should the model start the WF buff loss timer at the 0 sec mark, .5, 1, or 1.5 sec when GoA is dropped?

Oops. I blame that on the lack of foresight to split that wall of text into multiple posts to make editing easier.

I'll see what I can whip up today. I'd love to do some general restructuring of the layout but its such a huge pain in the ass with the limited editing tools, even if I copy it to a word doc I still end up having to manually renumber sections and stuff.

[e] I would like to propose the following restructuring, which would also follow through to the ThinkTank wiki whenever Boe finally opens it.

1. General Intro
a) General idea of what the spec brings to a group
b) Overview that we are highly gear dependent, perhaps more than any other class. DPS is dependent on the gear more than on player input

2. Major Abilities
a) Windfury and its mechanics
b) Flametongue and its inbred cousin Frostbrand
c) Stormstrike
d) Shocks

3. Talent Builds
a) Elemental/Resto subspecs
b) The Myth of Elemental Devastation

4. Itemizing an Enhancement Shaman (Or, we know better than Blizzard does)
a) Stat Weights
...1) Examples
...2) Hit Rating
...3) Haste Rating
...4) Int/Mp5
...5) Expertise
b) Weapons
...1) MH
...2) OH
...3) 2H viability?
c) Relics
d) Gems and Meta Gems
e) Trinkets
f) Enchanting your gear
g) Consumables

5. In a group setting ...
a) Totem usage
b) Dealing with threat

6. For Raid Leaders ...
a) Group compositions
b) Evaluating Enhancement Shaman with WWS

7. Simulations

8. Itemization links and popular addons

9. Brief overview of Enhancement PvP

10. Changelog

Actually, considering the low amount of hit rating many shamans pack, SS can actually be worth closer to 1/5 of your WF procs (based on a WWS from last Thursday, it was responsible for exactly 20% of mine). Still, the effect of SS timing on Windfury should be similar to the effect of hit rating on Windfury -- if stacking hit rating isn't a huge buff, then slipping SS shouldn't be a huge hit.

Of course, if what we're talking about is folks with some zany cycle that is going to result in the sacrificing one ability or the other, then yes, this will add up to less WF. (I didn't realize this was the suggestion; I thought we were discussing the SS/Shock race condition that occurs naturally every 31s). With WF being such a feedback system, and considering that picking shocks vs strikes doesn't look like it'll have a 1% benefit in either direction, I'm going to shut up and wallow in my own wasted math.